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IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#52601: Feb 21st 2017 at 7:32:40 AM

I think people overestimate how 'good' you need to be to not be a villain in DBZ. So long as you're not actively going out to commit genocide and sometimes pitch in for group fights, you can still join the nominal 'good guys'. Even if you're a raging asshole. See: Vegeta.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#52602: Feb 21st 2017 at 7:34:52 AM

[up][up]Because it would be a cool idea. That's the answer I got when I asked.

IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#52603: Feb 21st 2017 at 7:36:28 AM

I don't know cool, but different works. And different can be interesting.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#52604: Feb 21st 2017 at 7:47:51 AM

Looking back at Chapter 20:

"My father and Goku are probably no longer able to power up by reviving from the brink of death. The two of them have already trained their bodies to the absolute limit."

  • It feels really disingenuous for Trunks to make that observation rather than Vegeta, who would actually know a thing or two about Saiyan biology, whereas Trunks only just learned about god ki maybe a few hours ago.
  • I consider this franchise themed around the idea of surpassing limits and going beyond one's teachers. This theme comes to a head with Goku and Vegeta having the ability to literally come back stronger from anything that almost kills them. So the idea that this ability no longer exists/matters is just... aggravating and weird to me.
    • Especially because it's basically magical biology that makes no logical sense to begin with, so the idea that it has some arbitrary limitation after fifty years of Goku and Vegeta fighting intense battles and dying at least 2-3 times is also weirdly aggravating.
    • It also leads to a garbage moral of "you can train and fight all your life, but eventually you just won't learn anything from your experiences." Yes we already had this with the human cast but at least most of them had settled down and become comfortable with their lives.
  • If Black's body is Goku's and Goku can't increase his strength from Zenkais - then how is Black using them? Why would he not have all of Goku's power in the first place? Shouldn't he be at the same level as Goku and Vegeta then because Goku's body is at a point where it won't get any stronger just from Zenkais? He claims to use the "Saiyan trait" in the very same chapter where he's beating down Vegeta.
  • So do Goku and Vegeta simply not improve at this point? It's not just that regular training/Zenkais don't matter. Vegeta was in Super Saiyan Blue and ate a senzu bean, and that apparently made no difference. If training doesn't really benefit them anymore and zenkai's don't work, then all that's left is whatever Training from Hell Whis can give them.
  • So... Saiyan evolution just ends at Super Saiyan 3 a mullet? F'cking seriously?

edited 21st Feb '17 8:04:21 AM by Soble

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!
Moth13 Since: Sep, 2010
#52605: Feb 21st 2017 at 7:56:19 AM

The way I figured, when Zamasu took Goku's body he was initially way weaker then Goku because he wasn't used to it (see also; Captain Ginyu). After doing a bunch of battles his power level kept rising because he learned how to fight good in the body and was eventually able to re-unlock Super Saiyan Blue/Pink.

And also he was explicitly getting Zenkais in the anime so idk why Goku proper wouldn't too.

Enlong Court Dragon from The Underground Facility Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
Court Dragon
#52606: Feb 21st 2017 at 7:56:55 AM

Oh man. They actually finally just decided to kick Zenkai to the curb? Neat. more training power ups instead, please.

I have a message from another time...
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#52607: Feb 21st 2017 at 8:00:23 AM

[up][up][up]It's because the regenerated cells bond with his mind, allowing him further control of Future Goku's power (It was mentioned in chapter 19 that by default Black should be stronger since his Goku body was from further into the future), while the actual Goku and Vegeta have already gotten all they can get out of Zenkai boosts.

TyeDyeWildebeest Unreasonably Quirky from Big Rock Candy Mountain Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: How does it feel to treat me like you do?
Unreasonably Quirky
#52608: Feb 21st 2017 at 8:01:28 AM

Manga has you covered. Not exactly evil, just an impatient dick.

Ah, so the anime version is a case of Adaptational Villainy.

Though you do make an interesting point; very few of the characters in the Dragon Ball franchise can be described as altruistic.

No beer?! But if there's no beer, then there's no beef or beans!
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#52609: Feb 21st 2017 at 8:02:59 AM

Neither is an adaptation of the other, and the anime's version came first. Wasn't the manga just supposed to be promotional for the anime? I'm sure I've heard that somewhere, and it makes a whole lot of sense.

edited 21st Feb '17 8:03:48 AM by LSBK

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#52610: Feb 21st 2017 at 8:03:04 AM

Nah, more like the manga is a case of Adaptational Heroism.

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#52611: Feb 21st 2017 at 8:05:32 AM

The manga and anime are separate takes on Toriyama's initial outline for Dragon Ball Super. Neither's really an adaptation of the other.

Hobgoblin Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#52612: Feb 21st 2017 at 8:11:49 AM

@IANCE: Honestly, I'd say Vegeta was a villain until the Buu Arc. He was just more interested in fighting the bigger villains to prove he was the best around.

IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#52613: Feb 21st 2017 at 8:17:18 AM

Not really a villain. Just the Token Evil Teammate. Yes, there was always the sense that if there wasn't a bigger threat, Vegeta might step up to be that threat by just picking a fight with Goku, but he wasn't an antagonist after Freeza.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
Shlugo_the_great King of Burgers from Far Far Away (On A Trope Odyssey) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
King of Burgers
#52614: Feb 21st 2017 at 8:26:01 AM

So do Goku and Vegeta simply not improve at this point? It's not just that regular training/Zenkais don't matter. Vegeta was in Super Saiyan Blue and ate a senzu bean, and that apparently made no difference. If training doesn't really benefit them anymore and zenkai's don't work, then all that's left is whatever Training from Hell Whis can give them.

No, of course they can. Heck, Vegeta trains while they go back to the past and comes back visibly stronger than before. The notion that they can no longer improve is silly.

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#52615: Feb 21st 2017 at 8:31:55 AM

I believe it's less the fact that they can get stronger, and more they can't just abuse Zenkai to get stronger anymore.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Shlugo_the_great King of Burgers from Far Far Away (On A Trope Odyssey) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
King of Burgers
#52616: Feb 21st 2017 at 8:36:31 AM

Wasn't that the case since long ago? Since Namek saga ended they didn't really get any Zenkais.

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#52617: Feb 21st 2017 at 8:39:15 AM

Which really doesn't make sense if you think about it. If their bodies are still physically capable of getting stronger, why would an inborn biological function that lets them do that suddenly stop?

I mean, we know out of story reasons for that, but, the characters shouldn't acknowledge it.

IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#52618: Feb 21st 2017 at 8:44:12 AM

I think they could have tied it to the Super Saiyan transformation, like, I dunno, the Zenkai was just their bodies trying to adapt them so they're closer to Super Saiyan every time.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
alekos23 Since: Mar, 2013
#52619: Feb 21st 2017 at 8:45:39 AM

Cellular burnout or something?The Namek saga zenkais were ridicullous.

Or Super Saiyan's mysterious 50/100/400 boosts actually utilize your Zenkai stock.

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#52620: Feb 21st 2017 at 8:53:22 AM

[up][up][up][up] It was more the series simply stopped acknowledging them after Namek, most likely due to how insane they were in that arc. Aside from Cell, Zenkai's were never reference again until now.

So really, this is the first in-universe explanation for why they don't get Zenkai boosts; I admit though, I don't understand how a biological function of their body simply stops working. It's like if your body stopped being able to digest food simply because you ate too much.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#52621: Feb 21st 2017 at 9:04:35 AM

I think they could have tied it to the Super Saiyan transformation, like, I dunno, the Zenkai was just their bodies trying to adapt them so they're closer to Super Saiyan every time.

I figured it was something similar.

It was more the series simply stopped acknowledging them after Namek, most likely due to how insane they were in that arc. Aside from Cell, Zenkai's were never reference again until now.

This seems like it as well. Lots of things changed after Freeza. It makes sense to me that Toriyama would just stop mentioning it after this

One Strip! One Strip!
Shlugo_the_great King of Burgers from Far Far Away (On A Trope Odyssey) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
King of Burgers
#52622: Feb 21st 2017 at 9:15:50 AM

It'd be hard to keep writing the story if they had a way to multiply their powers at the drop of a hat like that. It only worked in Namek saga because they started out so completely outmatched.

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#52623: Feb 21st 2017 at 9:20:59 AM

That's exactly why they were phased out; the power jumps in Namek because of Freeza and Zenkai were ridiculous. And it all culminated in having to give Goku Super Saiyan to finally put him down.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Rinsankajugin Since: Feb, 2012
#52624: Feb 21st 2017 at 9:44:54 AM

Ya know, I know Gowasu just got stabbed the fuck out, but I'm pretty sure he can't die or else Rumushi would be dying in present U-10.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#52625: Feb 21st 2017 at 9:52:29 AM

[up]

Well, Shin is right there. And I'm guessing Goku and Vegeta will arrive just in time as well. I'm sure he'll be ok.

So, with Roshi going to get the tag just like in the anime, I'm almost afraid that the Goku forgot the tag scene is gonna be a manga thing as well.

One Strip! One Strip!

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