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unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#50576: Jan 28th 2017 at 4:47:11 PM

I sorta feel like Fat Buu as strong as Super Buu would still be slightly less of a threat by virtue of being dumber and more childlike.

IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#50577: Jan 28th 2017 at 4:51:33 PM

Super Buu doesn't need to happen - Fat Buu would make short work of SSJ 2 Gohan and then without fusion or SSJ 3, nobody can take Fat Buu. This is the scenario in which Buu getting released is Babidi's Instant-Win Condition.

And there's a non-0 % probability of the heroes letting Babidi release Buu just to fight a strong opponent. If Babidi can entice Goku with the promise of the fight of his life, then he will win.

edited 28th Jan '17 4:52:47 PM by IAmNotCreativeEnough

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#50578: Jan 28th 2017 at 4:57:06 PM

Fat Buu did make short work of SSJ 2 Gohan though. And Shin.

He just didn't. Y'know. Kill them.

...Actually, could Fat Buu sense ki? I feel like he couldn't, otherwise nothing makes sense.

Babidi wanted to find people whose ki could be sensed. And Buu didn't sense their ki for him, so Babidi had to use psychic explosion hostages.

The moment Super Buu happens, he senses the Lookout and goes straight there.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#50579: Jan 28th 2017 at 4:57:53 PM

[up][up][up] Pure Boo is dumb and child-like.

[up] Actually, Boo didn't kill Gohan because Kaioshin just narrowly saved him. Change some events and Boo is perfectly capable of killing Gohan.

edited 28th Jan '17 4:58:50 PM by Saiga

Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#50580: Jan 28th 2017 at 4:58:46 PM

Again, that implies Majin Buu would get released in this scenario at all.

@Saiga You're also forgetting that even when Vegeta was put under Babidi's control, he was never actually under his control like Dabura was; he was able to go against any of his orders at any time if he wanted to, simply because his Saiyan pride was stronger than his mind control, or something...

Even if Vegeta did allow Babidi to control him for a free power-up, there's no other reason to force a fight between him and Goku, as Goku isn't going to leave forever at the end of the day. So he could just get a free power-up, then just either kill Babidi himself since he doesn't need him for anything else, or just let someone else do it.

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#50581: Jan 28th 2017 at 5:00:04 PM

There was no reason to do that in the main timeline either. He could have taken the power-up, help defeat Dabra and Babidi, and then fight Goku. But once he had the power-up, he became fixating on fighting Goku and was killing to attack innocent people to let that happen.

Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#50582: Jan 28th 2017 at 5:02:01 PM

Again, desperation and his so-called belief at the time that he needed to return to how he once was in order to get stronger.

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#50583: Jan 28th 2017 at 5:06:30 PM

Mostly the latter, which doesn't change even if Goku's not going away.

Again, he was willing to wait. Then he realized Goku was still stronger, so he had to get stronger. Then the magic that did so made him more callous, and he just wanted to fight Goku right then.

This doesn't seem like it would change even if Goku is around permanently. He still needs the power-up, he still becomes more callous and obsessed.

unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#50584: Jan 28th 2017 at 5:13:16 PM

Actually, Boo didn't kill Gohan because Kaioshin just narrowly saved him. Change some events and Boo is perfectly capable of killing Gohan.

See, what I remember is that Buu beat the shit out of both Gohan and Shin, and then Kibito had to heal both of them.

Gohan is slightly more heroic and selfless than Goku and Vegeta, and more mature, so I still think he and Shin would stick together more just by virtue of more easily tolerating each other. And Gohan being generally well-mannered in the face of authority.

If Majin Vegeta happens, he and Goku would fuck off, and Gohan and Shin would try to stop Buu together because there is literally no other circumstance that makes any sense.

Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#50585: Jan 28th 2017 at 5:15:18 PM

It still really wouldn't change much though; if Dabura has been killed off at this point in time, then both Piccolo and Krillin are free from his stone spit. Even if Vegeta decides to fly off with Goku to have some epic battle, that still won't change the fact that Babidi now has Gohan, Piccolo, Shin, and Krillin now going after him, with his only form of protection being a bunch of grunts.

Also, even if no mind control happened and all of them cornered him, Babidi wouldn't be able to get away with bribing Goku with a good fight to let Buu free, since a) Babidi wouldn't even know that was a thing, b) either Piccolo, Shin, or Gohan could easily kill him despite any form of anger from Goku or Vegeta, especially since if Gohan was still training he would still be stronger than them, so they couldn't do anything to stop them, and c) it's ignoring the fact that Goku himself was trying to get Vegeta to stop their fight, once he realized that Babidi was using the energy from their fight to try and unleash Buu; even Goku was trying to prevent that from happening, and it was Vegeta who was pushing the issue to continue the fight, since he didn't care about anything else at that point.

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#50586: Jan 28th 2017 at 5:16:05 PM

That's leaving out the part where Boo blasts Gohan away on a big ball of ki, Kaioshin uses his telekinesis to destroy it, and then when Kibito finds him he's barely clinging on to life.

[up] Kuririn and Piccolo would be of no more help. Babidi being alone doesn't matter when Boo was released before Dabra or Gohan could even interact.

edited 28th Jan '17 5:17:19 PM by Saiga

unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#50587: Jan 28th 2017 at 5:18:59 PM

I mean. If all Goku wanted was a good fight, he would have let them go to Namek to bring him back from the dead again, because strong people were constantly showing up to fight him.

Except he decided to stay dead because he didn't want that because of collateral. Friends and stuff.

That's leaving out the part where Boo blasts Gohan away on a big ball of ki, Kaioshin uses his telekinesis to destroy it, and then when Kibito finds him he's barely clinging on to life.

...Okay? So? Not seeing any reason that would be different.

edited 28th Jan '17 5:20:15 PM by unnoun

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#50588: Jan 28th 2017 at 5:19:46 PM

Actually he thought he'd find strong people in the afterlife and was disappointed that no-one was on par with him seven years later.

Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#50589: Jan 28th 2017 at 5:21:08 PM

....what are you talking about; Gohan and Shin got back to Babidi's ship before Buu was even revived, so Buu isn't an issue at that point. Plus, if Piccolo, Krillin, and Kibito were free at that point and weren't sent back to the tournament grounds, then either one of them could just get the drop on Babidi once he moves the ball containing Majin Buu outside, and just kill him before he could really do anything.

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#50590: Jan 28th 2017 at 5:22:51 PM

No, Gohan and Kaioshin got back to Babidi the moment Boo was revived, and Dabra didn't do shit at this time.

That means his absence wouldn't mean anything, nor would the presence of Piccolo and Kuririn.

Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#50591: Jan 28th 2017 at 5:24:39 PM

Edit: Wait, was thinking Kibito was put into stone as well, not killed; still doesn't really change the fact that we've seen Shin teleport on his own, even after defusing from Kibito, so he could probably do that too if he wanted.

And again, Piccolo and Krillin were still there; if Dabura is killed and they're freed, Piccolo could simply break into the spaceship and kill Babidi himself, or do it once Babidi left the ship with Buu's orb.

edited 28th Jan '17 5:27:39 PM by Ssj3Gojira

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#50592: Jan 28th 2017 at 5:26:41 PM

Pure Boo is dumb and child-like.

...Oh you're talking about Kid Buu.

I mean. He's also too dumb to be tricked or conversed with or bribed. And has too much of that instinctive desire to destroy and nothing else.

Fat Buu could destroy things or just decide to take some candy from a baby. Then turn the baby into candy.

Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#50593: Jan 28th 2017 at 5:28:14 PM

Don't think Pure Buu counts as stupid or child-like; more like completely insane really.

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#50594: Jan 28th 2017 at 5:30:23 PM

[up][up][up] Kaioshin can't teleport in the manga. He specifically notes it's Kibito's ability.

And no, that is making a large assumption: if Goku and Vegeta start fighting, Boo is released almost immediately. Gohan and Kaioshin couldn't get to Babidi in time, there is no reason to think that Piccolo or Kuririn would.

unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#50595: Jan 28th 2017 at 5:31:16 PM

Like, Shin would be on Earth no matter what because that's where Buu and Babidi were. So I don't see any reason Shin wouldn't save Gohan if Shin were there, and no reason for Shin not to be there.

Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#50596: Jan 28th 2017 at 5:33:49 PM

Except it wasn't immediately, it happened a good way into their fight. And again, Piccolo is right there, like ten feet from the ship; between the time it would take to possess Vegeta after Dabura's death, send everyone in the room back to the tournament ground, and for Goku and Vegeta to find a good place to fight, Piccolo would certainly have enough time to break into the top floor where Babidi was, seeing as how he can sense energy and could tell where he is, and kill him before anything actually happened.

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#50597: Jan 28th 2017 at 5:35:35 PM

...So if Babidi dies but Goku and Vegeta are still fighting, would the energy still go to Buu and wake him up? Or is that a spell thingy that Babidi has to actively do?

edited 28th Jan '17 5:35:54 PM by unnoun

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#50598: Jan 28th 2017 at 5:36:30 PM

[up][up][up] The point is that Boo is definitely capable and willing to kill them. Once you start changing the situation, something Gohan just barely survived could be something Gohan doesn't survive.

I mean just removing Dabra from the situation means more time Boo has to pummel on Kaioshin and Gohan both, possibly killing one or both of them.

[up][up] No, they didn't fight for long. Remember, Gohan was right there. He didn't make it in time. There is no reason Piccolo would get there any quicker than anyone else.

edited 28th Jan '17 5:37:10 PM by Saiga

Moth13 Since: Sep, 2010
#50599: Jan 28th 2017 at 5:36:33 PM

Kaioshin can't teleport in the manga. He specifically notes it's Kibito's ability.

Yeah but that's been retconned by now.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#50600: Jan 28th 2017 at 5:37:26 PM

Yeah but that's not really relevant for talking about the manga.


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