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HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#50551: Jan 28th 2017 at 1:07:15 PM

Yeah.

Wasn't there like a whole blog about the issue when the second episode of Super aired that put it in perspective.

Once he came down from the initial high of accepting things, he decided that just because he recognized that Goku was better then him didn't mean he had to stop trying. It's just that now he had no illusions that he was taking his destined spot or anything. He's still gotta work for it, instead of just assuming it should be his because I'M THE GODDAMNED PRINCE OF ALL SAIYANS THAT'S WHY!!!

He just has more realistic expectations now.

One Strip! One Strip!
IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#50552: Jan 28th 2017 at 1:31:08 PM

The thing is, being stronger than Goku =/= being better than Goku.

Vegeta still uses Goku as his measuring stick and still wants to pound his face in, but he has no delusions about trying to be the 'best' anymore.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#50553: Jan 28th 2017 at 1:34:29 PM

So I watched that video and I have to agree with its point; Vegeta really has no reason to try and surpass Goku anymore beyond that simply being his most notable character trait.

It's like, during Z it was a pride issue but he got over that at the end of Z. And yea sure, he's admitted Goku was better in Super, but all its done is retread territory that we've already seen.

What makes it more egregious is that Goku is nowhere near as concerned about Vegeta. He's more interested in Beerus and Hit than Vegeta.

Vegeta has popularity on his side however, so of course it makes sense to cash in on his most notable traits but it's resulted in a bit of regression in his character from Z.

I legit feel like his best moments were interacting with his family over training in the gravity room trying to surpass Goku for the umpteenth time. It's why I liked him in the Black arc. He's not chasing after Goku but protecting his family, it's a noble motivation than just trying to stroke your own ego.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#50554: Jan 28th 2017 at 1:37:22 PM

Pretty much everyone agrees that the best Vegeta scenes are when he's in normal people situations but still behaves like, well, Vegeta.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
Shlugo_the_great King of Burgers from Far Far Away (On A Trope Odyssey) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
King of Burgers
#50555: Jan 28th 2017 at 1:53:14 PM

Honestly speaking, if Vegeta abandoned his attempts at surpassing Goku he'd probably fall into depression because he would no longer have any goals left in life.

Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#50556: Jan 28th 2017 at 1:54:07 PM

Besides, you know, being a good father and husband and having awesome fights?

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#50557: Jan 28th 2017 at 1:56:25 PM

"Well I mean, hating Kakarot sort of gives me life so, you know..."

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#50558: Jan 28th 2017 at 2:14:50 PM

If that's all Vegeta had he'd probably kill himself. And that's not even because Saiyan or whatever, some people just can't be good with that, even if they do love their family.

Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#50559: Jan 28th 2017 at 2:37:58 PM

Well to be fair let's remember that after Goku died, and Vegeta seemingly had no way to fight him again, all he did was enter a mild depression and swear off fighting. Which he seems to have broken years later since he was exercising with Trunks.

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#50560: Jan 28th 2017 at 2:39:53 PM

Fair point. But exercising isn't fighting.

Still, he was planning on breaking that vow to fight Gohan, but he kind of seemed to be using Gohan as his closest substitute for Goku.

IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#50561: Jan 28th 2017 at 2:57:45 PM

His vowing to never fight again was just him throwing a bitch tantrum.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
Memers Since: Aug, 2013
#50562: Jan 28th 2017 at 3:24:57 PM

He is solidly proud how Trunks has always been better than Goten though, he treats that as a solid win.

IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#50563: Jan 28th 2017 at 3:59:30 PM

But if you think about it, it's kind of an epic fail for him - he's just barely keeping his son ahead of Goten, even though Goten only has Chichi to help him train and Trunks is a whole year older.

Must be because he didn't really train Trunks.

edited 28th Jan '17 3:59:53 PM by IAmNotCreativeEnough

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#50564: Jan 28th 2017 at 4:00:07 PM

Wasn't Goten also training with Trunks as well?

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#50565: Jan 28th 2017 at 4:00:56 PM

Their equivalent of 'games' is probably 'playfighting' which would pass as honest to goodness beatdowns for normal people.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
GAP Formerly G.G. from Who Knows? Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: In love with love
Formerly G.G.
#50566: Jan 28th 2017 at 4:02:43 PM

Goku was kind of a jerk though. He hid the SSJ 3 form from Vegeta and it almost looked like he wsas "mocking" the poor guy.

"Mai waifu."
unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#50567: Jan 28th 2017 at 4:12:06 PM

My point is: No Fusion, No SSJ 3 = everyone dies. Yes, they didn't kill Buu, but without either of those, everyone dies.

But I mean. Are you sure? Because I don't feel like either really. Contributed. Either.

Like, both seemed like more of a hinderance than anything.

Gohan only got absorbed because of a combination of factors which included Gotenks getting absorbed which only happened because Gotenks existed.

Buutenks was able to wear Gohan down by a lot because of how strong he was.

And, like. Super Buu only haopened because of a long series of circumstances too.

...Okay, so, thinking about it, Super Saiyan 3 made Buu want a strong fight, so he'd turn against Babidi.

But, like. I feel like Mystic Gohan might have happened no matter what. Like, Shin's interest in Gohan and belief in him seems independent of Gohan beating Cell because I'm not sure Shin knew Cell was a thing. Like. He didn't want them to fight the guy weaker than Super Perfect Cell, whom Gohan literally beat single-handedly.

Buu not killing Gohan has to do with Buu not really giving a shit. And also Dabura distracting him and his tiny attention span.

Elder Kai happened because they were training with the Z Sword, and they started playing around with katchin.

So.

Worst case scenario I see, Buu destroys humanity for Babidi, Mystic Gohan shows up and wrecks fat Buu's shit.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#50568: Jan 28th 2017 at 4:17:02 PM

Boo only stopped destroying random cities because of Super Saiyan 3 and the promise of Gotenks. He only killed Babidi and lost the trail of Goten/Trunks/Piccolo because Goku convinced him.

Evil Boo only avoided killing everyone on the lookout because of the promise of Gotenks.

Assuming Gohan was whisked away to the afterlife in the same way and released the Elder Kaioshin, then yeah, maybe you wouldn't need Super Saiyan 3 and Gotenks. Everyone would probably die, but the planet might not be destroyed and Gohan could beat him.

But things have changed a lot before the Boo arc even starts, there's no reason to assume the exact sequence that leads Gohan to be sent to the Kaioshin world happens instead of him being one of the ones killed by Boo.

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#50569: Jan 28th 2017 at 4:17:39 PM

[up][up][up]Less "hiding" and more Toriyama hadn't thought it up yet. But even without that, using that used up a lot of his time, so I'd see why he wouldn't want to take the risk. And besides, Vegeta would see anything Goku does as "mocking" him, that was all in his head, and was something for him to deal with.

edited 28th Jan '17 4:18:33 PM by LSBK

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#50570: Jan 28th 2017 at 4:18:36 PM

Goku justifies it as only having one chance to use it, so he had to hang on to it just in case.

unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#50571: Jan 28th 2017 at 4:20:51 PM

Again, would Super Buu have happened without Super Saiyan 3 and the promise of Gotenks? Pretty sure it only happened because he became friends with Satan, because he killed Babidi and stopped destroying cities and built a house.

unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#50572: Jan 28th 2017 at 4:32:06 PM

I mean.

Without the Cell Games there's no Gold Fighter, and no Satan City either.

Videl would still be an above average martial artist, but not famous.

So the blackmail wouldn't have happened. Probably nobody would go to the tournament.

EDIT: Maybe the blackmail would happen anyway, actually? I think Gohan would still try to be a superhero.

edited 28th Jan '17 4:34:27 PM by unnoun

Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#50573: Jan 28th 2017 at 4:36:47 PM

I mean, would it though; if Goku remains alive, then Vegeta has less of a reason to let Babidi possess him, as he's in no position to force a fight with Goku as the guy isn't dead and doesn't have a single day time limit for Vegeta to feel the need to push a fight. Likewise, with Goku still being alive he'd probably at least make Gohan keep up in his training, even if it's just to stay in shape; if Dabura is either equal to or weaker than Perfect Cell, then Gohan could easily kill him, and there's no reason to assume that neither Goku nor Vegeta wouldn't have unlocked Super Saiyan 2 themselves during the seven year period between the two sagas, so it'd ultimately end with Babidi having to deal with everyone by himself, with nowhere close to enough energy to release Majin Buu. He dies, Majin Buu isn't freed, and half the saga never has to happen.

Plus, it's not like the Fusion Dance, Super Saiyan 3, or Majin Buu have contributed anything to this franchise after their debut; the Fusion Dance and Super Saiyan 3 have even less of a success rate than the Spirit Bomb does, only being useful against really one movie villain each, Majin Buu has barely done anything in this franchise past him becoming one of the protagonists, barring allowing the creation of Uub and Majuub, and Super Saiyan 3, as well as 2, are ultimately tossed to the wayside once Super Saiyan God and Super Saiyan Blue enter the picture in Super, as well as Super Saiyan 4 in GT.

edited 28th Jan '17 4:38:13 PM by Ssj3Gojira

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#50574: Jan 28th 2017 at 4:42:48 PM

Actually, wouldn't Satan have been the winner of two tournaments? One before Cell and one in the seven years after.

I assume none of the Z Warriors would have cared about the tournaments anymore.

Satan wouldn't be savior of the world, so he wouldn't be massively famous, so the tournament wouldn't be as popular probably. Less crowded.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#50575: Jan 28th 2017 at 4:44:23 PM

I'm not entirely sure if Goku would make Gohan train. Gohan might want to train because his father is around, but Goku

[up][up][up] Evil Boo might not happen, but he's still part of Boo. Given that Boo kept increasing in strength when he got angry, he may have just become as powerful as Evil Boo anyway when pushed against the wall.

Vegeta still has a really big reason for letting Babidi control him: that power-up. If after seven years of training, he realizes he's still falling behind Goku, than he's probably going to be just as desperate to find a way to close the gap and the Babidi power-up is an opportunity he would miss if he didn't allow it to happen then.

Remember that seeing Goku was still stronger than him (from the brief Super Saiyan 2 he used against Yakon) was what really pushed Vegeta into allowing Babidi to take over him.


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