Anyway, this Gohan as Saiyaman and Super Cop Krillen stuff is way more entertaining than redoing the two movies. You, on this very thread, you said it couldn't be done! But this is what "Super" should have been doing from the beginning! But TOEI has finally come to their senses, or more likely, were forced to be creative after running out of material to rehash and actually came up with good ideas. I knew they could do better.
The Baseball Episode proves that memes are ascending into the work itself, if the inmates aren't already Running the Asylum, but at least the characters treat Yamucha with the expected degree of respect.
And that Hit episode, that's how Vegeta was in the Buu saga, and I like it, as well as Hit leaping through time or space in further contrast to instant transmission. To think I once suspected the Super Anime would turn out worse than GT.
Buldogue's lawyerTimes 20 is the most Goku did.
King Kai couldn't do Kaioken at all, and told Goku not to multiply it over x2. Goku didn't listen because he's Goku.
There's nothing said about times 20 being the highest possible for anyone ever.
Doubt many people could get over 20 because of how tough it is.
Feel like Cell could though. Frieza's durable and Piccolo can heal.
edited 16th Jan '17 9:44:10 PM by unnoun
Well, not being able to master the technique you created (and should know the most about) is a little weird.
Though not impossible I suppose. Maybe by the time he finished it, he was too old (by Kai standards) to fully master it, hence teaching it to Goku so he could do it (beyond that whole invading asshole Saiyans thing).
One Strip! One Strip!Yeah, Kaio definitely could use the Kaio-Ken, Goku just mastered it to a level beyond what he could.
On the umpteenth installment of the 'SS1 Gohan vs Super Perfect Cell' conversation last page: Gohan's rage boosts have never been his full power, unleashed through any mental blocks he has, they have always been him tapping into the vast well of hidden potential within his body, raising his Power Level beyond what he's normally capable of at that point. Besides, IANCE, your entire argument, every time, hinges on one thing: that Super Saiyan 2 being a 2x multiplier is relevant and true to the manga at that point in time.
Is there any reason to assume that it wasn't? Even if Toriyama didn't come up with that detail until later, it doesn't make it any less of a fact.
Let the joy of love give you an answer! Check out my book!Because if that were true...wouldn't SSJ Gohan just outright beat Perfect Cell? With no effort at all?
Assuming the logic of him being half of SSJ 2 is true...he somehow managed to defeat an even stronger form of Cell at the level of SSJ. And with that train of thought, he should've had no problem with him when he was in a weaker form. If the power gap was really that wide....
edited 17th Jan '17 1:07:49 AM by hardcorefakes
If that were the case, then there'd be no narrative point to him transforming to SSJ 2 in the first place.
If Toriyama came out and gave that exact multiplier later on, then it's an example of a Word of God Retcon that clearly wasn't intended at first. And it just goes to show why in the plot itself he rarely outright quantifies power levels any more.
Well, while I disagree that Gohan was more than twice as powerful as Super Perfect Cell, that's just incorrect. Toriyama was writing by the seat of his pants and already established Gohan as stronger than the form of Cell he went Super Saiyan 2 against. Cell didn't reveal his full power until after Gohan had transformed and rendered it pointless.
Now there is the fact that Cell used more effort fighting Gohan than he did Goku, but aside from using his true speed he didn't appear to power up, making him weaker than Gohan. And yet, Gohan still had to transform, because it was the point where he stopped sandbagging. Unless you assume Toriyama retconned it once the fight started so that only Gohan's hidden power was stronger than Cell.
Writing week to week, either are fully possible. Saying there is no narrative reason for it happening isn't a factor when Toriyama could be shifting gears on a weekly basis.
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If it's established that Gohan, as he is, is powerful enough to accomplish what he wants to do without transforming, then the big climax of him transforming is still narratively weak regardless.
There really isn't any narrative advantage to him getting a power boost when he already has the power to do what he wants to do, over simply having him stay as he is but dig deep and pull that power out, because ultimately he doesn't actually need to. Especially when the issue is restraint, as it was with Gohan at the time. The transformation does add the narrative caveat of his personality alterations, however, so there's still relevance there as getting complete control over oneself as SSJ was an earlier plot point.
When Cell gets a powerup later that is more powerful than Gohan's max was at SSJ, that's superfluous (at least in regards to this specific situation), as it's beyond the point where it matters.
edited 17th Jan '17 2:36:52 AM by KnownUnknown
You could make the argument that SSJ2 wasn't even in Toriyama's mind when we made that fight. Looking through it and the dialogue, nothing outright calls it a new transformation or anything like that. The closest is Cell saying that Gohan has changed and that this is his true form which could be taken a number of different ways.
Let the joy of love give you an answer! Check out my book!The massive stamina drain is getting a bit ridiculous.
I mean given enough time and training, you should be able to offset any time of stamina drain right?
I feel like some of the techniques have too many flaws, and not enough ways to work around them.
One Strip! One Strip!... No, sometimes, it doesn't matter how much you train to endure it, some things are just too draining.
Presumably, mastering SSJ 3 to that degree would've taken way more time than what Goku had between Buu and Beerus.
himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari

I mean, even if Gohan in his base form was a hundred time stronger than Super Ultra Mega Perfect Golden God Oozaru Cell (Baby, Majin, Villainous, Kaioken Times 2 trillion), the fact is that Cell kinda wanted to destroy the planet? So. Maybe don't give him the senzu?
edited 16th Jan '17 8:01:01 PM by unnoun