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IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#49801: Jan 16th 2017 at 5:46:36 PM

[up]But we do though. SSJ 2 Gohan (2x SSJ Gohan) was stronger than Super Perfect Cell with only half his power left.

SSJ 2 Gohan divided by two is SSJ Gohan, which is still greater than Super Perfect Cell, ergo SSJ Gohan is stronger than Perfect Cell.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#49802: Jan 16th 2017 at 5:49:40 PM

I have my own issues with what both of you have said, but this discussion never goes anywhere so why are we bothering?

Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#49803: Jan 16th 2017 at 5:51:50 PM

And you don't think Gohan had, you know, another one of his rage boosts during the final part of that clash?

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#49804: Jan 16th 2017 at 5:55:06 PM

[up][up] Because pointless debates that go nowhere are what the tvtropes Dragon Ball thread are all about.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#49805: Jan 16th 2017 at 5:58:08 PM

[up] I'd say that applies to life in general, really.

Let the joy of love give you an answer! Check out my book!
Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#49806: Jan 16th 2017 at 5:58:16 PM

That's half of the threads on this site sometimes....

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#49807: Jan 16th 2017 at 5:59:32 PM

I respect the idea that Super Perfect Cell was stronger than Super Saiyan 2 Gohan, but at the end of the day that same Gohan was able to kill him with half his stated power gone.

IndirectActiveTransport plays capoeira from Chicago (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Every rose has its thorn
plays capoeira
#49808: Jan 16th 2017 at 6:01:58 PM

Super doesn't exaggerate his antihero traits, just his dumbness. Most of Goku's "saiyan" traits were present before "saiyans" were even a thing. Most of them are altogether visible in his fight with Piccolo Jr. The only "new" thing that came when he got older, which also came with Piccolo Jr, was an aversion, and even that was visible when he thought suggested Metalitron join the Budokai and then freaked out when he accidentally blew off his head, thinking he had killed him. That could be taken as an early example if you wanted it too, even if the more explicit cases didn't pop up until the Piccolo Jr battle.

And sparing people because he genuinely thought they had the chance to become good rather than because they were interesting opponents didn't come until Raditz, after saiyans were a thing.

Buldogue's lawyer
Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#49809: Jan 16th 2017 at 6:02:08 PM

Again, rage boosts have been a thing with him since day one, and we know that he had more power hidden away than what we saw against Cell, otherwise Ultimate Gohan wouldn't have been a thing.

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#49810: Jan 16th 2017 at 6:05:21 PM

You realize that still makes us correct right?

randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#49811: Jan 16th 2017 at 6:06:21 PM

But, why would it have been a rage boost?

It's the year 1993 and all Gohand did was unleash his full power.

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#49812: Jan 16th 2017 at 6:08:02 PM

Except that doesn't prove he was stronger than Cell even with only Super Saiyan, since it still means he either needed Super Saiyan 2 or a Rage Boost for him to become stronger than him.

edited 16th Jan '17 6:08:45 PM by Ssj3Gojira

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#49813: Jan 16th 2017 at 6:09:52 PM

I don't think it was a rage boost, I think it was Gohan simply not knowing how truly strong he actually is, when he overcame Cell's Kamehameha. I believe he is truthful in saying that half his power is gone, but that he's demoralized enough that he doesn't realize that he's still stronger than Cell, and thus needs to be re-moralized by Goku to finish him off.

[up]Even if it is a rage boost, that is still Gohan's power. You know, 'rage boost' is not actually a status effect that increases his power, it's Gohan becoming enraged enough to lose his self imposed subconscious limitations and using his actual power instead of just what he 'allows' himself to use normally.

edited 16th Jan '17 6:11:10 PM by IAmNotCreativeEnough

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#49814: Jan 16th 2017 at 6:10:03 PM

Don't you think they would've made a bigger deal about his power increasing if it was a rage boost?

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#49815: Jan 16th 2017 at 6:11:47 PM

[up]Not at that point - everyone was a bit busy fearing that Gohan was going to lose and everyone made it a habit during that fight to underestimate Gohan except Goku.

Goku being, you know, the most experienced and skilled fighter in the cast, the one whose word is the most trustworthy when speaking Martial Arts since he does know better than everyone else there and the only one who's seen Gohan's true power.

edited 16th Jan '17 6:13:14 PM by IAmNotCreativeEnough

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#49816: Jan 16th 2017 at 6:12:02 PM

Hell, how do we know that he wasn't also getting a Rage Boost on top of Super Saiyan 2 as well?

[up] Because Goku was banking on his rage boosts, that was the entire point. And then Cell turned out to be even stronger than what Goku believed.

edited 16th Jan '17 6:13:14 PM by Ssj3Gojira

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
Eriorguez Since: Jun, 2009
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#49818: Jan 16th 2017 at 6:13:45 PM

I agree it was just Gohan not knowing how strong he is, but I disagree with IANCE on the conclusion. He seems to be assuming that meant that half his power is all he ever needed and just didn't realize it, where as I've taken it to mean he was just wrong about only having half power and didn't realize it.

Goku chimes in, but what he means could be interpreted different ways. But I don't think "Gohan had another rage boost" is really supported by any of it.

edited 16th Jan '17 6:14:20 PM by LSBK

IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#49819: Jan 16th 2017 at 6:14:17 PM

Rage boosts are not a status effect that increases his power, rage boosts is Gohan's actual power. If he won because of a 'rage boost', he won because of his own power, because Gohan was stronger than Cell even as a Super Saiyan and that's an absolute fact.

Goku was not banking on anything other than the moment when Gohan stopped being a pansy and used his actual, real power to air-juggle Cell's candy ass. Goku could not have known SSJ 2 existed, but what he did know is that Gohan was stronger than him and Cell (and with SSJ 2, Gohan was stronger than Goku and Cell combined).

[up]And I honestly disagree with that interpretation because... well, why would you think Gohan would be wrong about how much ki he has left compared to what he started out with?

Especially when we know that the Super Saiyan forms are hella inefficient.

edited 16th Jan '17 6:18:27 PM by IAmNotCreativeEnough

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#49820: Jan 16th 2017 at 6:20:58 PM

Except it might as well be. Super Saiyan 3 is said to be the absolute limit of a Saiyan's power, and that thing is still a 400x boost to one's power. And again, Goku did not know how strong Cell was, as he was shocked at his power when he actually decided to go all-out against Gohan. Goku was banking on Gohan being strong enough to beat Cell with a rage boost, which is how it was described as when Gohan realised it, but Goku was wrong on how strong Gohan had to be to actually beat Cell; it was only thanks to sheer dumb luck that he still managed to be right in the end.

edited 16th Jan '17 6:22:03 PM by Ssj3Gojira

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#49821: Jan 16th 2017 at 6:27:59 PM

While I disagree with IANCE saying that Super Saiyan Gohan would be stronger than Cell, Super Perfect Cell being stronger than SS2 Gohan is really ill-fitting.

Just look at the Boo arc - Cell Games Super Saiyan 2 Gohan is the pinnacle to aspire to and surpass. Cell is comparable to a guy Gohan has no business struggling against. It's pretty clear cut, Gohan's Cell Games Super Saiyan 2 power is THE go-to measuring stick, Cell is second best.

IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#49822: Jan 16th 2017 at 7:23:22 PM

[up][up]Goku knew that Cell was holding back against him, and knew that Cell was stronger than him by a fair margin. He flat out tells Gohan that Cell was holding back.

He doesn't know how much by, but by the time Cell uses his full power, he's already fighting SSJ 2 Gohan and the difference between them is so large that Cell going to full power is meaningless.

Meanwhile, SSJ 2 Gohan at half energy, which is equal to SSJ Gohan, managed to overpower and kill Super Perfect Cell. Even if it's the 'rage boost' that you're so fond of bringing up, that is still Gohan's power.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#49823: Jan 16th 2017 at 7:25:52 PM

Dude, rage boosts have been a thing since Raditz, and they have been used in literally every single fight Gohan ever got involved in, up until he got Super Saiyan, where it got used again in order to unlock Super Saiyan 2 for him. You can pretend they're not a thing all you want, but you'll still be wrong.

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#49824: Jan 16th 2017 at 7:28:20 PM

Are you actually reading my posts, or do you just reply to the strawman you built?

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
Moth13 Since: Sep, 2010
#49825: Jan 16th 2017 at 7:47:07 PM

When I was watching Gohan vs Super Perfect Cell on toonami a couple weeks ago it seemed pretty clear to me that Gohan saying he was at half power was him lowballing himself because of his self esteem issues while Goku was the more experienced fighter who could tell Gohan actually had more in him.


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