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Cortez from Parts Unknown (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#49701: Jan 15th 2017 at 3:27:51 AM

[up]x3

It does actually and you forget that Videl wasn't as Tsundere far before super.

In fact, after the Saiyaman/Budokai portion of the Buu Saga, she pretty much acted as she is now.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#49702: Jan 15th 2017 at 3:32:51 AM

I didn't forget anything. I never called her a tsundere.

In the manga, she's quite headstrong all the way through (she vanishes for most of it, albeit). Sure, she's capable of being nice, but she wasn't without personality. We don't see her every acting like she does in the earlier parts of Super, which absolutely outweigh two episodes of decent handling.

[up][up] That doesn't excuse sexist writing. No-one is asking her to act the exact same, they're asking her to at least maintain her defining characteristics along with her goals and agency.

edited 15th Jan '17 3:33:45 AM by Saiga

IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#49703: Jan 15th 2017 at 4:22:37 AM

No one is asking for Videl to be exactly the same way as she was when she was 16, but why is she not still a superhero?

I mean we all know she and Gohan don't need to work because of all of Satan's money. I get why Gohan would choose to just focus on his studies, that's what he wants to do, but Videl? She should be out doing super heroics, the thing that she did because she wanted to, especially now that she knows how to use Ki. If she kept up her training, which she should also have done, she should be so fast, strong and durable that she should not be in any danger from the enemies she'd be facing.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#49704: Jan 15th 2017 at 4:31:03 AM

Gohan actually is studying so that he can work, because he wants to be reliable. The fact that he is driven to study, work and succeed when he doesn't need to just makes Videl's lack of any drive for anything more suspicious.

IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#49705: Jan 15th 2017 at 4:37:45 AM

Yeah, what I meant is that Gohan is a scholar because he wants to be, while Videl, the one who was a Superhero because she wanted to be is... a housewife.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
GAP Formerly G.G. from Who Knows? Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: In love with love
Formerly G.G.
#49706: Jan 15th 2017 at 6:01:36 AM

I less blame Toriyama and more blame Japanese societal standards and traditions.

Values Dissonance? [nja]

"Mai waifu."
MyssaRei Since: Feb, 2010
#49707: Jan 15th 2017 at 6:12:49 AM

[up]

Very much so. Of course, this does seem to explain Toriyama a few decades ago, this doesn't necessarily explain why Super's writing staff sticks to the same formula.

unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#49708: Jan 15th 2017 at 8:17:13 AM

I mean, at least in the end of Z and GT she still had some damned personality. At least in the anime.

When she made fun of her dad.

My main complaint about Videl in Super is that she could be replaced with a cardboard cutout of herself and there would be no noticeable difference.

Like, the previews for the first episode of Super before it came out indicated that there were going to be shenanigans involving wedding planning, and Goten trying to get a gift for her, and. Shit, I'd prefer that to what we're getting mainly.

Though I suppose one of them had to stay home to take care of Pan.

That's what Babysitter!Piccolo is for.

Hell, Pan seems like the sort of baby that would like being thrown at a mountain.

She would grow up liking Piccolo best and being pouty at her parents because they never threw her at mountains when she wanted.

King Furry's tourism board and the ecology and geology departments would have to start investigating why all the mountains started disappearing.

Alternatively, Videl could go and start her own gym/dojo, and make Pan her assistant. Have her flip giant 300 pound dudes.

Like, Pan took Pilaf and co. into space. She needs taking care of in the sense of keeping her away from incoming traffic so she doesn't break the cars.

And making sure her quarter-Saiyan appetite doesn't consume all the baby formula on Earth or rip Videl's tits off.

And making sure she doesn't starve because babies are bad at feeding themselves and need a lot of nutrition constantly.

edited 15th Jan '17 8:35:46 AM by unnoun

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#49709: Jan 15th 2017 at 8:34:42 AM

For the record, this isn't saying that Videl wasn't great in the last two episodes because she was.

But none of that changes that her personality and goals have largely been removed in favor of turning her into a housewife. You have a character who was largely defined by her goal and desire to help people and had an iron will beneath that and even teamed up with her boyfriend turned husband later on to do so and then...all of that disappears without a trace to play up her role as a mother and wife. Like, you can't even argue that's not the least bit sexist and a really poor use of a character who was at least entertaining before.

Like, there's no reason why she can't be a mother and a superhero. Just like there's no reason why Gohan can't be a scholar and a fighter. It's just something Super doesn't want to do.

edited 15th Jan '17 8:35:37 AM by BlackYakuzu94

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#49710: Jan 15th 2017 at 8:40:20 AM

I mean, what I keep hoping is that Super starts putting Gohan down the road of Dragon Ball Online, to start working on Groundbreaking Science.

Because analyzing and studying ki and martial arts, and publishing it, is probably the most badass thing Gohan has done in any story. Like, you could make Gohan super duper strong, but that wouldn't be impressive to me. Anyone could do that if they were Saiyan and trained enough.

But, no, using his brain, and making the world a better place and revolutionizing it because of the scientific method? Through legit academic study and research techniques? That's something only Gohan can do.

IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#49711: Jan 15th 2017 at 8:42:58 AM

Thing is, it's not so much a Dragon Ball Super thing as it is a Japan thing.

It happens all the time in shonen action manga and anime that strong, independant females counted amongst the cast's fighters wind up becoming housewives. It doesn't matter how much of a badass rebel she was, if she gets married and has a kid, she'll be a housewife.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#49712: Jan 15th 2017 at 8:46:10 AM

I mean, Chichi and Bulma still have some goddamned personality though.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#49713: Jan 15th 2017 at 8:49:54 AM

There's a lot of Values Dissonance there, but not as much as you might think. That marginalized character typing of female characters and especially love interests in media meant for boys is basically everywhere, expressing itself in ways more line with the present culture depending on where you find it.

Videl's character devolvement is something that's very identifiably Japanese, with a character type I've come to really hate over the years. But even so, thinking about it just made me think of how often I've been annoyed by similar writing in superhero stories and action/adventure movies/stories and all that jazz.

The entertainment shows varying decrees of pretending to care, depending on where you are, but it's ubiquitous and that's just terrible.

edited 15th Jan '17 8:51:33 AM by KnownUnknown

IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#49714: Jan 15th 2017 at 8:52:30 AM

I think it's better said that it's a common thing that happens in media aimed at young boys, because it's significantly less common the older the target audience is.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#49715: Jan 15th 2017 at 9:08:39 AM

I wouldn't say it's a young boys thing and more a Japanese thing like you said.

Country is extremely traditionalist and I don't see their values changing much. It's annoying as all hell, but eh.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Demetrios Making darkness adorable since 1999 from Des Plaines, Illinois (unfortunately) Since: Oct, 2009 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Making darkness adorable since 1999
#49716: Jan 15th 2017 at 9:28:32 AM

Last night's episode had a great number of Sweat Drops. XD

Come on! Let's bless them all until we get fershnickered!
AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#49717: Jan 15th 2017 at 9:29:20 AM

Ya know, I remembered looking up about Toriyama and I found out his wife did some manga work before she met him. When they got married, she retired to become a housewife.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#49718: Jan 15th 2017 at 9:45:34 AM

Real-life inspiration?

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#49719: Jan 15th 2017 at 9:48:22 AM

Don't quote me on this, but it's rumor'd to be one the leading factors to the declining birthrate in Japan; women understand to have a successful career in something they love, they simply can't get married and have children otherwise they'd be expected to give all of that up to take care of the children and support their husband.

Actually, I do believe continuing to work after getting married and having children is frowned upon since it's seen as the wife is being "selfish" for wanting to do something for herself instead of dedicating her time to supporting and maintaining her family. Because that's what a wife is "supposed" to do.

So really, what happened to Videl makes complete sense from their point of view, even if it's annoying as fuck for viewers like us. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if Videl was actually liked because she gave up her hobbies and aspirations to wholly support her family as it would be seen as a great "sacrifice" on her part.

edited 15th Jan '17 9:52:38 AM by BlackYakuzu94

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#49720: Jan 15th 2017 at 10:41:42 AM

It's weird that their culture can be like that, but then they make things like Ghost In The Shell, Jojo Stone Ocean, Poke Mon, Metroid, and Bayonetta.

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!
SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Love is Love is Love
#49721: Jan 15th 2017 at 10:48:30 AM

I'm pretty sure Stone Ocean was controversial for its time and let's not forget that they put Samus in fuck-me heels and gave her daddy issues.

My various fanfics.
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#49722: Jan 15th 2017 at 10:52:47 AM

Yea, it's not like it's a universal opinion; a lot of Japanese find it as problematic as we do and actively fight it. It's just a lot more ingrained over there in society than it is in America.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#49723: Jan 15th 2017 at 10:53:53 AM

Her design isn't suppose to have heels?

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Love is Love is Love
#49724: Jan 15th 2017 at 10:56:17 AM

Not like what Team Ninja gave her.

My various fanfics.
Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#49725: Jan 15th 2017 at 11:08:08 AM

I'm pretty sure Stone Ocean was controversial for its time and let's not forget that they put Samus in fuck-me heels and gave her daddy issues.

But that Metroid game was critically panned, so a pretty big misstep for them.

edited 15th Jan '17 11:09:14 AM by Soble

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!

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