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Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#48851: Dec 26th 2016 at 2:32:53 AM

Except each set of media is given an outline by Toriyama, so there is an original source of material here.

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#48852: Dec 26th 2016 at 2:46:40 AM

That's...not how that works.

The original source material would be a finished product to adapt from, an outline is not at all close to that.

edited 26th Dec '16 2:47:21 AM by randomness4

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Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#48853: Dec 26th 2016 at 3:02:01 AM

Filler doesn't have a universal definition to begin with, and there IS something resembling an original source: Toriyama's script.

Super's produced in a situation not quite like other series. So I don't think being using strict definition of concepts that apply moreso to series produced in a different way.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#48854: Dec 26th 2016 at 3:08:38 AM

No, actually, Super's being made in almost exactly the same way every anime that isn't an adaptation of a pre-existing manga is made: someone has an idea and outline for a series, and a show is made from that idea and outline, sometimes with a smaller tie-in manga.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#48855: Dec 26th 2016 at 3:23:04 AM

That is a laughably simplistic description that does not paint an accurate picture.

Because generally, the person coming up with the draft actually works for the company producing the work and is involved in the production. Toriyama has his own studio, he is not a Toei employee which is a very big difference

randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#48856: Dec 26th 2016 at 3:34:25 AM

That difference being how significant?

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IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#48857: Dec 26th 2016 at 4:08:51 AM

The difference being that we can never really say that either Toei or Toyotaro can 'decide' what Dragon Ball Super should be like, because neither 'owns' it creatively speaking.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
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#48858: Dec 26th 2016 at 4:28:00 AM

Which means that all events in both versions are equally valid in canonocity (with the possible exception of the Dr. Slump crossover).

hardcorefakes coolest_guy from probably America Since: Oct, 2015 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
coolest_guy
#48859: Dec 26th 2016 at 4:32:11 AM

Yeah, I'm not sure why people don't understand that. That they're both stemmed from Toriyama's drafts.

I think the only "filler" of Super would probably be things like the Copy Vegeta stuff...and this recent Hit arc. That probably came from Toei itself.

IndirectActiveTransport plays capoeira from Chicago (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Every rose has its thorn
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#48860: Dec 26th 2016 at 6:35:58 AM

There is no filler because they not filling time for something to catch up with. There is lots of padding in Super.

Canon? Well until someone outright comes and says one version of super, show or comic, take precedence over the other, we can't say which is canon, only that they aren't in continuity with one another.

Canon only really made sense when the manga was the undisputed authority on all things Dragon Ball. And even then, we didn't have a clear canon lined out for us, we could only make educated guesses based on what could and could not be in continuity with the manga(which is to say, absolutely nothing besides a few words from God that weren't always consistent and Dragon Ball Online even began to make sense...and even that game has some time travel-alternate timeline headaches, questionable narrative cases that only make sense in the context of a game and has probably been rendered obsolete by some later revealed information)

edited 26th Dec '16 6:37:13 AM by IndirectActiveTransport

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IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#48861: Dec 26th 2016 at 6:48:39 AM

In other words, and to quote someone from here a long time ago, canon as we know it doesn't really exist with regards to Dragon Ball.

Because that's not really how Japan does things, methinks.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
IndirectActiveTransport plays capoeira from Chicago (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Every rose has its thorn
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#48862: Dec 26th 2016 at 7:38:09 AM

Now you're just generalizing an entire country. One work taking precedent over another definitely is a concept they understand fully. If you don't believe that, take a look at Gundam sometime. I'd say the ultimate difference is they're a little less likely to throw someone else's work away outright as they are to create a situation where it cane be safely ignored, because, you know, manners.

Anyway, since my mom has discovered Super I have watched the first fourteen episodes, and if you can get over the fact it's a completely unnecessary retelling of something that didn't happen all that long ago, that it took 280 minutes to achieve what the movie did in 105, if you ignore that there is a shorter, superior version of it, it's not that bad. Better than the Z anime(of which there was also a shorter, superior version of, but I digress). Even taking these fundamental flaws into account, "Battle Of Gods: The Subpar Remake No One Asked For" is still better than Dragon Ball GT.

The best things it brings is Vegeta fulfilling his promise to take Trunks out, and establishing a special ability of Beerus that fits well with his job description, the latter being the only reason to even suggest retelling a perfectly good story.

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alekos23 Since: Mar, 2013
GAP Formerly G.G. from Who Knows? Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: In love with love
Formerly G.G.
#48864: Dec 26th 2016 at 10:02:13 AM

Closest thing to a canon in Dragon Ball is the original 24 volume manga and even then there are plot holes in it. Perfect Cell's head getting blown off and regenerating from that despite the fact that Cell said that as long his nucleus in his head is intact several chapters later anyone?

"Mai waifu."
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#48865: Dec 26th 2016 at 1:27:52 PM

Canon and plot holes have nothing to do with each other.

GAP Formerly G.G. from Who Knows? Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: In love with love
Formerly G.G.
#48866: Dec 26th 2016 at 2:03:18 PM

[up] I guess not. I don't know if there is a definite canon for Dragon ball unless you count the manga, that Daizenshuu guide and Toriyama but he isn't very reliable.

edited 26th Dec '16 2:03:37 PM by GAP

"Mai waifu."
alekos23 Since: Mar, 2013
#48867: Dec 26th 2016 at 4:27:42 PM

Looking at DB cosmology,is King Enma the only deity with no one above him,in the "soul management" department at least?

Aside from Zeno and Priest,of course.

Demongodofchaos2 Face me now, bitch! from In a Cultivation World (Ancient one) Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Face me now, bitch!
#48868: Dec 26th 2016 at 4:51:08 PM

I always felt that after Yu Yu Hakusho came out during the time, Toriyama should have given King Enma a son that looked like Koenma just as a small nod to how eerily similar both series's Spirit worlds are in terms of looks.

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IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#48869: Dec 26th 2016 at 5:01:47 PM

Why should he?

There's no reason why he should include a nod to a series that's drawing from the same inspiration as his does, in terms of the look and some of the functionality of the afterlife, especially when Yu Yu Hakusho's spirit world does not work like the Dragon Ball afterlife in any really significant way.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#48870: Dec 26th 2016 at 5:14:58 PM

Also, Japan does have A concept of canon, but normally they don't view it the way we do. I think Western properties tend to have more interaction with the fanbase, which leads to them doing things like defining their own canon and communicating such to the fans. It is very rare to see Japanese creators address that.

Instead, the Japanese creators and fans alike place a huge emphasis on the work of the original creator - but that includes anything that has the creators involvement, and is rarely brought up in relation to continuity. It's just that anything with the original creator's name attached attracts more interest from fans, so a big deal is made of marketing it.

There isn't even a consistent definition of canon. Most of the definitions out there are superseded by creators actually stating what is canon, which is mostly defined by what is in continuity and going to be used in future works. With DB, who the fuck knows? A lot of things that were considered canon have been dropped in future works, even stuff from the manga.

Generally speaking, Toei will continue to use stuff exclusive to their own works and Toriyama will use stuff from his own works (like Jaco, stuff he came up with in interviews, etc). But I don't think either of them are thinking hard about canon when doing so.

Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#48871: Dec 26th 2016 at 5:34:08 PM

Hell, the five Supreme Kais thing seems to be retconned into there only ever being one, since we only saw one Supreme Kai from Universe 6 attend the tournament, Gowasu was the only Supreme Kai we saw from Universe 10, and if we're going off from the trailer for the next arc, all the Gods of Destruction only brought one Supreme Kai with them to meet the Zenos.

At this rate, it'll probably be retconned that Shin was training to be the next Supreme Kai when the (Grand) Supreme Kai was alive, and that his predecessor tried to valiantly fight Majin Buu, only to be absorbed which created the Fat Buu that we know and leading to Shin having to step in to deal with his predecessor's duties.

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#48872: Dec 26th 2016 at 6:05:07 PM

For the first part, definitely.

But I doubt they'll ever actually retcon the backstory, it will likely just be ignored.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#48873: Dec 26th 2016 at 6:12:28 PM

Why no just say that Universe 7 just had more then one Kaioshin, while the others required just one?

Considering that Zamasu was a mere Kai, but was close in power to Super Saiyan 2 Goku, it might just be that the Kais of other universes are stronger for some reason.

Or they could say that all the other Kaioshin were potential candidates, and that Dai Kaioshin thought all of them were worthy enough, so he trained all of them as Kaioshins, or something like that?

There are plenty of ways to deal with it that don't contradict what was said in the past. I mean, we already know East Kaioshin was Incompletely Trained due to everyone else dying, so it's not like he'd know how things work in other universes.

edited 26th Dec '16 6:32:38 PM by HandsomeRob

One Strip! One Strip!
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#48874: Dec 26th 2016 at 6:30:28 PM

I was thinking they could easily retcon that Universe 7 was the anomaly, and being to reduced to one Kaioshin (technically two) has not been fixed as the other universes get by just fine on one Kaioshin.

If they wanted, they could even say 7 and 6 are bigger than the other universes, which is why other universes only have one Kaioshin. And it means they don't have to deal with as much exposition for the others.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#48875: Dec 26th 2016 at 6:33:22 PM

That works too.

...So what're the chances that they'll even bother to do that?

edited 26th Dec '16 6:33:44 PM by HandsomeRob

One Strip! One Strip!

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