TVTropes Now available in the app store!
Open

Follow TV Tropes

Following

Dragon Ball

Go To

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#47226: Nov 26th 2016 at 7:23:43 AM

It's as much a transformation as Freeza going from 50% to 100% is, or Goku going from Tournament Strength to Battle Strength.

IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#47227: Nov 26th 2016 at 8:14:36 AM

No, it really isn't like that, because those are both natural while Gohan's 'ultimate' state is artificially created and not something he reached naturally.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#47228: Nov 26th 2016 at 8:20:01 AM

The naturalness is irrelevant. I was specifically referring to how all of those are the same transformation, just using less than maximum power compared to maximum power.

IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#47229: Nov 26th 2016 at 8:28:43 AM

No, it is relevant, because Freeza going from 50% to 100% actually is a transformation. Yes, it is indeed as much of a transformation as the SSJ transformation is. Freeza can't control his power worth shit, that's why he assumes different forms in order to use a different powerlevel, instead of just holding himself back. Just because the transformation consists only of making his muscles bulge doesn't mean it isn't still a transformation.

I don't think 'Ultimate' Gohan is a different form of Gohan, but it is Gohan in a specific state, and we know that he needs to enter that state in order to have that power, and more importantly, we know he can lose the ability to use it.

Goku training and getting stronger, however, isn't.

edited 26th Nov '16 8:29:47 AM by IAmNotCreativeEnough

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#47230: Nov 26th 2016 at 8:32:15 AM

It is absolutely not a transformation. Freeza's transformations heal some of his damage and come with physical alterations. 100% is exactly the same as me tensing up my muscles.

IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#47231: Nov 26th 2016 at 8:40:02 AM

No, it really isn't. Do your shoulders triple in width when you tense your muscles? Do your muscles grow considerably? Do you suddenly and spontaneously double in physical strength?

Saying that Freeza 50% and Freeza 100% are the same form of Freeza is like saying that SSJ and the form that Trunks used are the same thing. It's close, but it's simply not.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#47232: Nov 26th 2016 at 9:04:23 AM

To be fair, most of that muscle mass was just an anime-only thing. The manga had his 100% state be considerably less bulky.

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#47233: Nov 26th 2016 at 9:50:15 AM

I have to agree with Pushover here. Frieza might be all about transforming, but calling him using 100% of his power instead of 50%, in his natural born state, a "transformation" is pushing it. It's not transforming, it's him not holding back.

edited 26th Nov '16 9:51:55 AM by LSBK

IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#47234: Nov 26th 2016 at 10:21:31 AM

[up][up]And then the videogames made it worse, but that's not the point - the point is, it's a transformation... it's just not him assuming a completely 100% different physical appearance.

100% Freeza is as much of a different form from 50% Freeza as Super Muscle SSJ Trunks is from vanilla SSJ Trunks.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
IndirectActiveTransport plays capoeira from Chicago (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Every rose has its thorn
plays capoeira
#47235: Nov 26th 2016 at 12:00:38 PM

I kind of liked how the Budokai games did Freezer and Cell's transformations, shame we haven't had another villain like them yet. Buu changed forms a lot too, but two of those are technically separate entities.

And since Toriyama isn't drawing the manga anymore, do you think we'll ever get another villain, or any character for that matter, with as intimate detail as Cell? One thing I liked about Digimon Xros Wars was how most of the more subtle design elements that were left out of TOEI's earlier adaptations were retained for once. If the confused the fad cash in can get it surely the abused fad starter they're currently milking again can get at least one such character. Cell was an android, albeit a damn near In Name Only case, so I'm thinking the next one would be some Neon Genesis Evangelion abomination with some relation to the Holy Halo siblings Whis and Vados as Cell was tied to 17 and 18.

Buldogue's lawyer
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#47236: Nov 26th 2016 at 1:44:48 PM

Freeza's 100% is LITERALLY a transformation. It transforms his body.

It's just not how DB usually describes transformations.

Didn't Elder Kai tell Gohan that to access his Ultimate power he needs to try turning into a Super Sayian?

The direct quote you're thinking of:

Chapter: 496 (DBZ 302), P4.1-2
Gohan: “Ho-how can I turn into this mightiest of warriors!?”
Elder Kaioshin: “You transform into that Super whatever-it-is a lot, right? You’ll be fine if you just get the gist of that, and throw in a kiai.”
Gohan: “The gist of Super Saiyan…I-I got it…!”

He doesn't have the changed physical features until after he does this, and he retains them for the rest of the manga. So it's like a one-time transformation.

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#47237: Nov 26th 2016 at 2:16:07 PM

So how do we interpret everything after the manga, or its just Toei being Toei?

In any case, 100% Frieza is technically a transformation, but not in the same vein as his previous ones. Rather than unsealing his power, it's more like he's using it all of it at once.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#47238: Nov 26th 2016 at 2:33:25 PM

Freeza 100% actually is just him unsealing his power. It's unique amongst his other transformations in that it's not him deliberately altering his physical form, presumably anyway, while doing so, it's just a byproduct of him using that power. After all, Freeza can't actually deliberately hold back like the heroes do - he doesn't have that kind of control over his power and that's why he relies on transformations that seal his power in order to do it.

@Saiga

It might be one-time, though it's unlikely, but we know it's not permanent. Didn't he lose the visual traits of the transformation in the epilogue as well?

edited 26th Nov '16 2:34:08 PM by IAmNotCreativeEnough

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#47239: Nov 26th 2016 at 2:40:30 PM

He lost the bang, but that's about it.

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#47240: Nov 26th 2016 at 2:43:22 PM

Yeah. His hair is still similar to his Ultimate look.

EDIT: You know, reading it again, Dragon Ball's epilogue is pretty horrible. I'm glad Super's basically retconned it to hell.

edited 26th Nov '16 2:46:41 PM by Zelenal

Let the joy of love give you an answer! Check out my book!
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#47241: Nov 26th 2016 at 2:59:42 PM

It hasn't really yet.

We never saw Kibito Kai in the epilogue, so him splitting back into Supreme Kai and Kibito isn't so crazy.

Goku and Vegeta never go Super Saiyan, and only Goku fights anyway, so him have the God power isn't something that goes against it.

Hell, there are actually a lot of things that could have happened between the four years where Pan was born and the Epilogue.

....Though now that I think about it, Ubu is kinda old looking considering Pan was still so small(but there is that Saiyan aging bullshit)....

....You know what? I'm actually not gonna defend all this. I'm pretty sure there are a bunch of holes in it.

I'm just gonna enjoy what happens in Super and not worry about anything else.

One Strip! One Strip!
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#47242: Nov 26th 2016 at 2:59:46 PM

[up][up][up][up] Nope, still got the eyes. His hairstyle is just different.

edited 26th Nov '16 3:00:12 PM by Saiga

LordVatek Not really a lord of anything Since: Sep, 2014
Not really a lord of anything
#47243: Nov 26th 2016 at 3:19:49 PM

I think the two biggest sticking points regarding the epilogue are the complete lack of Bra and the presence of Beerus and Whis. They're pretty much part of the group now and assuming that they don't die, they would both jump at the opportunity to go to a tournament with food.

How old was Bra in the epilogue again?

This song needs more love.
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#47244: Nov 26th 2016 at 3:20:20 PM

There is no way Beerus and Whis would be interested in the Budokai.

[up] 4.

edited 26th Nov '16 3:23:02 PM by Saiga

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#47245: Nov 26th 2016 at 3:21:08 PM

A year or so younger than Pan.

randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#47246: Nov 26th 2016 at 3:25:13 PM

Younger, but taller.

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
LordVatek Not really a lord of anything Since: Sep, 2014
Not really a lord of anything
#47247: Nov 26th 2016 at 3:25:33 PM

Alright then yeah, there are no real contradictions yet. Not that I would complain if there were, the epilogue was pretty dumb.

edited 26th Nov '16 3:25:51 PM by LordVatek

This song needs more love.
IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#47248: Nov 26th 2016 at 3:25:34 PM

Beerus and Whis were probably getting stuffed somewhere, they'd have no interest in the Budokai... but they might have some interest in seeing what Goku can do with Uub.

Also, the epilogue might have been dumb... but honestly, having seen what other manga do with their epilogues and endings, I can only appreciate Dragonball's more.

We ended on a high note, with Goku and Vegeta facing the most dangerous and actually succesful enemy they'd ever faced, Vegeta has finally completed his character arc and pulled the inferiority/superiority complex stick out of his ass, as well as finally calmed his Goku hateboner, Gohan has turned into a respectable and productive member of society, he is together with a woman he loves, Krillin is happy with his wife and daughter, Bulma is happy with her family, Goku finally has someone to take over the mantle of Earth's Protector and we even end on an "And the Adventure Continues" type ending.

I've seen far too many manga that end with pairings that come right the fuck out of nowhere, with facing a disappointing final boss, with unresolved plotlines and unsatisfying resolutions to the ones that did get resolved, pair the spares abundant... Hell, you could argue that's a common problem of all long running fiction, honestly.

People whine about Dragon Ball's less than superb ending, but honestly, at least it's not offensively bad, and that's much more than what I can say about a whole bunch of shitbag endings.

edited 26th Nov '16 3:34:15 PM by IAmNotCreativeEnough

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#47249: Nov 26th 2016 at 3:28:47 PM

Beerus went to sleep again.

Simple as that. Or they were just doing other shit. Yes, he's hanging out on Earth quite often, but he's got other shit to do.

Those planets don't just destroy themselves now do they?

One Strip! One Strip!
Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#47250: Nov 26th 2016 at 3:31:08 PM

I mean, it's not like Frieza even has that 100% Power state anymore, considering the training that led to him getting his Golden form led to him fully mastering his natural power. That means that he can not only go 100% without bulking up at all, it also means he really only needs the one restriction form now.

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!

Total posts: 130,800
Top