Vegeta literally mentions how normal it is for the Saiyan's to fight on the front lines and get zenkai.
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Planet Vegeta is gravity training. And as pointed out, Goku and Vegeta go well beyond Saiyan standards when put in the same conditions as them, so it's not just about them getting access to better power-ups.
first Zenkai? How do you even know it was his first? That's just an assumption you've made because it supports your argument, the fact that Saiyan zenkai was common knowledge and low class like Bardock were sent to planets as infants to fend for themselves goes against that.
Anyway, on the Trunks thing: No, I don't agree that it was a good idea. I think the very idea itself was bad, it's just backed by even worse execution.
The original Android arc handled Trunks very well, despite having an introduction that was very sketchy, the story then took that and used it as build up for the new antagonists, showing that Trunks wasn't really that awesome. When he reappeared the series explored his multiple, logical character flaws and made him a lot more endearing. The way the timelines were handled allowed him to play a minor, but important role in the main timeline and be the hero in his own timeline where he's not stealing the spotlight or overshadowing everyone else.
I don't think Toriyama is a brilliant writer, but the way he handled Trunks' character in that arc shows that he is definitely capable of quality plotting. It's one of the stronger character arcs we have. Even before this arc I've seen people complain or express confusion over Trunks not solving the problems in the main timeline as well, which would be absurd, but people think that it's his right to solve both problems.
Super's arc feels like one of those fans looked at the Android arc and thought "THIS is the way it should have been!" with Trunks getting a whole bunch of spotlight, out-of-nowhere and incredibly poorly explained power-ups, and the plot bending over backwards to make him look good. Thirteen-year-old fanfiction describes it perfectly, because it wouldn't be hard to find this premise in fanfics predating Super.
What makes it feel like such a downgrade is that Toriyama went from doing a genuine subversion of a cliched fan character - before the character type even existed in the fandom! - to essentially playing that cliche straight in an incredibly shitty way. As terrible as Resurrection F was, at least it didn't follow the fan rumours that Vegeta would finally kill Freeza while randomly blurting out that he is the KING OF SAIYANS. It was dumb that they did the bait and switch, but at least Toriyama didn't decide to go full pandering with that. And yet, he goes and does it with Future Trunks here.
I don't mean that Future Trunks can never win, I really like the fact that he handled Babidi/Dabra on his own and I'd also like to see a more extended version of the Future Boo arc where he gets to be the hero. But not in a story that plays very closely to the outline of the Android arc but modified so Trunks gets more glory.
The idea that it is his arc/his problem is just silly, Goku Black isn't even from his timeline and he's the one who spurred Trunks to go into the past. He just showed up in Trunks' timeline to wreck shit, so he's really the one who kicks things off. Then we've got Zamasu introduced with Goku and pissed off by his behaviour, which helps him along his descent into KILL THE MORTALS, and both Zamasu and Black start obsessing over Goku, then we find out what Black actually did and how much of a connection he has to Goku, and the other gods/Kaioshin. But Trunks "deserves" the win despite him really just being someone who got caught up in a completely separate problem.
edit: On Raditz - It annoys me how people think he should be a big deal because he's Goku's brother.
For starters, I don't think there is anything positive about the rule that blood ties should dictate story importance. Just look at how big a plot tumour that became on Naruto for instance. So it's not subverting things for the sake of subverting them, it's deliberately not conforming to an expectation that is potentially quite damaging to stories. I think that's a damn good thing for a story, to be prepared not to follow some ingrained audience expectations.
Secondly, it's Goku. The whole point of the Saiyan arc is how he doesn't care about his heritage and does not identify with the Saiyans. There is no better representation of that ideal than having him oppose a blood relative, placing the people he actually grew up beyond his brother. For the story to go and then make Raditz important or a recurring character to completely shit on the theme of the story arc, as well as remove something from Goku's character. All because blood ties need to be important, even in series starring characters who don't care about blood ties and have a REALLY good reason not to.
??????
edited 17th Nov '16 4:52:47 AM by Saiga
Goku was able to be immune to most of human weapons at a power level lower than two digits, so sending infants to foreign planets isn't a feat unless you are able to say that the races of all planets are by default stronger than humans.
Edit: I double checked. If Daizenshuu can be trusted(and even not),Goku can lift small cars and not be hurt by bullets at a power level of 10 or anywhere in the double digits.
edited 17th Nov '16 5:14:04 AM by Ikedatakeshi
I don't think so. This entire arc was centered around not underestimating mortals, which was a sentiment centered around Trunks more than Goku or Vegeta. Additionally, Trunks' being essential to the arc was foreshadowed way back when Trunks was all like "Goku and Vegeta are so much stronger than me, I should just let them handle everything", and Vegeta promptly handing him his ass and being all "screw that! No future son of mine is turning into Gohan! You're contributing to this arc, whether you like it or not!" Besides, Trunks didn't solve everything by himself, he just dealt the final (and if spoilers are the believed, not even that) blow to an enemy who was literally falling apart and melting.
Finally, Trunks in this arc absolutely did not carry the same Marty Stu connotations that he did in his first appearance, because he's already a well-established character, and all of the Marty Stu connotations were purely superficial in the first place, and Trunks, throughout this arc, is fallible, sad, wistful, and scared, scared for his future, scared of Lord Beerus, scared for Mai's life, scared of Black. He's written exactly the same as he is in the Android Saga, except older, more weary, more experienced, and more determined.
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Given that most races we see are stronger than regular humans... yeah. That's a very easy claim to make.
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The "not underestimating mortals" bit falls flat when Trunks has to rely on unexplained bullshit to do anything, Vegetto fails because he's a mortal (if he were a Kaioshin, the fusion would be flawless), Zamasu falls apart because of the mortal part of his fusion, etc. The symbolism, if intentional, completely fails.
Vegeta telling Trunks not to give up doesn't foreshadow random-ass power-ups that don't ever get elaborated on. It doesn't justify putting him in the spotlight, either.
I didn't say Trunks was a Marty Stu in the arc, just that his role is like a fanboy "fixed" version of his role in the Android arc. He's written the same as in the Android arc except the plot randomly bends over backwards to fellate him.
@Saiga, very well put, those are all problems I had with the arc as well.
I never would have though Toriyama would put something like "And the Trunks gets power of everyone who believes in him, and cuts Zamasu with his cool laser sword while making a big speech about power of humans." into script. It seems so unlike him.
Trunks has only gotten two big power-ups this entire arc, his pseudo-god form which does have an, albeit flimsy, justification in the form of Vegeta trainig him in Super Saiyan Blue, and him absorbing a Spirit Bomb which, in and of itself, isn't problematic: it makes complete sense for Trunks to get a huge and temporary power-up from absorbing a Spirit Bomb, the only problem is where the Spirit Bomb came from, which very well might be explained in the next episode, since this one didn't have any opportunity to explain or justify its appearance.
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If it wasn't such a major part of the battle, I'd be pretty confident it was a Toei thing. But I can't see how they'd insert that into Toriyama's script unless he left a massive blank like "and then they beat Zamasu somehow, idk lol"
But hey: I never thought that Toriyama would create a story about an old villain coming back and receiving a massive power up only to die again. But then Toriyama booted up fanfiction.net and really worked his ctrl + c, ctrl + v game.
Neither of those make any sense at all. We don't even know if that's a spirit bomb. It's certainly not consistent with how we've seen things portrayed in the past.
Absorbing the Spirit Bomb for massive power is something that's been limited to the movies or really wacky video game plots (Shin Budokai for one, and that thing is insane).
And fans can brainstorm as much as they want to come up with their own explanations, it won't change that the episodes themselves aren't offering explanations or that the fan explanations are usually way off base for the kind of thing you'd actually expect from the series.
edited 17th Nov '16 6:02:22 AM by Saiga
Only part I disagree with is on Trunks not having much to do with Black; even if the latter didn't give much of a shit, Trunks did and that's kind of important. I also disagree that it was wrong to try and give Trunks the spotlight either as I don't think that's an inherently bad idea at all.
A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.The whole movie was kind of a "Shaggy Dog" Story but I guess that's the point.
A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.You keep throwing out the number 4000 for Nappa's power level but where is it? I looked over the manga, every page with Nappa in it, and can't find the number.
This is what happens. Goku shows up, beats up Nappa, Vegeta tells Nappa to cool down, Nappa fights evenly with Goku. Goku says it's going to take forever to beat Nappa, Nappa says its going to take forever to beat Kakarot, Vegeta says this fight is going to take forever and tells Nappa to stand down. There is actual on panel evidence and three statements backing up the notion that Goku was equal to Nappa until Goku used the Kaioken. When Vegeta fights Goku, he comments that it isn't how he beats Nappa, basically demanding that Kakarot use fist of the worlds.
Now, Goku and Vegeta get beat up, Vegeta heals and goes to Namak with a X3 power boost. All of Freezer's soldiers are freaked out but Freeza himself says it's not surprising, because Vegeta just fought a battle. Vegeta's gains aren't surprising to him, the one who feared a saiyan uprising and or a super saiyan. He then says he has a premonition about an encounter with a powerful saiyan and guesses it's one of the two on Earth. Zarbon says it's impossible since their power levels were lower than Vegeta and Freeza dismisses him before an internal dialog about the infinite potential of saiyans and how none must be allowed to reach his level.
Freeza never says anything about any saiyan he encounters is unusual until Goku turns super saiyan, and there hasn't been one of those in a thousand years, so no one really has a frame of reference from that point onward. North Kaio isn't surprised by saiyans either, until Goku turns super. But considering super saiyans did exist before, one can also assume it's less Goku is a freaky mutant and more something wrong with the saiyans in general. Maybe losing their original home planet had something to do with that? Maybe the strongest were being covertly murdered for a long while before Freeza just decided to go for the Final Solution. Maybe it's quality of opponents is the issue. But they all seem more likely than "Goku is a mutant". Every pure blood saiyan we meet is either initially stronger than Goku or roughly equal to Vegeta, except Tarble, who can still survive a fight with two Ginyu Force level fighters. We don't actually get to see the gains other saiyans get from combat or training because they all either die, get Put on a Bus or are Tarble, but as far as I can tell there's more evidence in the manga, and post manga material for Goku/Vegeta not being mutants. Once in a century/millennia talent, perhaps, but that's not the same thing as being a mutant.
You know what I think it is? Sending babies off world. Think about all the times Goku could have died if not for dumb luck. Yamucha just happened to be afraid of girls and bolted when Goku was too hungry to keep fighting, Yamucha just happened to be around to tell him not to touch boss Rabbit, Pilaf had no way of knowing he was a werewolf monkey, some girl just happened to keep him from freezing to death, a mouse just happened to scare General Blue, Tao Pai Pai just happened to shoot him in the wrong spot, Daimo Piccolo didn't anticipate his heart restarting, and then Goku actually did die, he just happened to be on a planet with Dragon Balls.
Most human accomplishment can be attributed to what the child learns from the parent and sharing of ideas throughout communities. Saiyans had become an increasingly solitary race of bad parents. If your kid slips in the rain and breaks his hand, then he probably dies before his first full moon. But someone was around to help Goku when he fell down a ravine and got brain damage. Someone was there to teach him about the importance of recovery after work, about basic math, to warn him not to get too full of himself, he learned much just by watching other people. Several beings that could have killed Goku before he got out of hand(Ox King, Roshi, Korin, Popo Kami) instead helped him progress. How many babies simply died young from easily preventable deaths or grew up inadequate while thinking they were hot shit like Raditz? Hell, the only reason Goku even exists is because Bardock was strange. He helped save another saiyan on a mission and became attached to her. Nappa could have very well ended up just as powerful as Goku and Vegeta if Vegeta hadn't decided to execute him for failure.
Buldogue's lawyerAfter watching the last episode, I realized that Vegito (while cool to see again) wasn't really necessary. Why didn't not just skip to Trunks using his sword technique.
I guess Vegito needed to weaken Zamus but Trunks sword power probably could've done that too.
edited 17th Nov '16 7:47:42 AM by BigBlackBangBro
35 year old white man.![]()
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Nappa's battle power was given in Weekly Shonen Jump while the series was in the magazine during the saiyan arc.
edited 17th Nov '16 7:52:49 AM by Cruherrx
"If you weren't so crazy I'd think you were insane."On Goku being a bad father, I agree that he is, but it's also annoying how people act like he's somehow outside the grain for that or especially bad.
TFS annoyed me with their tirade about that in the last Xenoverse 2 episode. And of course, the "Piccolo is a better father" bit that don't actually make sense if you look at how Piccolo and Gohan's relationship actually developed and was like for the most part.
But as has been pointed out, stuff like that is usually said either by people who haven't actually seen/read the series, or let other people's impressions of things color their perceptions of it.
edited 17th Nov '16 8:07:28 AM by LSBK
And, to be honest, it is consistent with what we had seen 20 years ago: Vegetto spontaneously unfused, Kaioshin fusions remained fused.
And, if you ask me, it makes more sense to be an artifact of the Potara themselves, than a side effect of Buu's innards. However, burning through the time limit at the rate it did was kinda lame, even if consistent with the other fusions. Have the time limit apply anyway and it is fine.
Well, Buu integrates the entire absorbee into his being, taking plenty of mental traits, memories and the like. Cell had the DNA and techniques of his genetic progenitors, and his absorption method was pretty much feeding; even the cyborgs were absorbed so an specific part of them could fuel his natural evolution.

Funny observation
. The Kaio-what gag is still in full swing.
"King Kai Fist!"
Zamasu: Nani!? -kicked in the face-
I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!