Just because it isn't spelled out that Zamasu was getting weaker due to his fusion destabilizing and Vegito kicking his ass, doesn't mean it wasn't happening. Granted, it doesn't mean it was happening, but that means that both interpretations are equally valid. In the end, it's up to you: do you want to interpret the final battle of this arc as an inconsistent mess, or do you want to interpret the final battle of this arc as a completely consistent and well-written climax? Both are equally valid, but one is much more satisfying and much less headache-inducing.
I'm not saying they can't have internal consistency, but that would require a lot of rewrites and loophole abuse, something I don't think the series actually cares about.
It's not trying to be a cohesive narrative that makes sense, it runs on its own internal rules. Now if it contradicts the manga then fine, sure I'll concede to that.
A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.![]()
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Because it means Trunks didn't need training from the gods in order to get it, which again raises the question of why neither Goku nor Vegeta had access to the same power after the seven years Goku had in the afterlife, or the five to six years of training Vegeta had between Buu and Beerus.
edited 13th Nov '16 10:55:08 AM by Ssj3Gojira
Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
x4, It doesn't undermine anything that came before. They didn't know it wasn't permanent back then, so it's the same to them.
Also, it helps to think of Super as its own thing. That's what I do. The manga is what I'm willing to let mix with the old Dragonball stuff.
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"Spelling it out" makes the narrative much stronger though, and removes the unnecessary ambiguity. See, the thing with mutated forms is they're typically stronger than the super forms. Just the fact that that's what happened, in addition to him doing better against Vegito muddles how strong or how weak he is. One line of dialogue fixes this. But they didn't care.
Reason out what I'm saying to you. Just because the Kaioshin are dead before he learns Super Saiyan 2 in NO WAY erases the training he got from them. Goku didn't unlearn Kaioken just because he learned Super Saiyan. Trunks didn't unlearn what the kaioshin taught him just because he got SS 2
edited 13th Nov '16 10:59:17 AM by Cruherrx
"If you weren't so crazy I'd think you were insane."Except the anime is what came first; the manga is an adaptation of the anime, not the other way around. Even then the manga decided to do its own thing pass a certain point, so it could possibly do something just as "dumb" as the anime.
The Kaioshins also only trained him in how to use the Z Sword, that's it.
edited 13th Nov '16 10:59:12 AM by Ssj3Gojira
Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!Ah, found it
. "Desperate Assault" it's called, but who knows if it's the real name.
Top 5:
- The song that plays when Gohan transforms.
- Vegeta's SSJ Theme from Faulconer
- Desperate Assault
- Battle of Gods - Hero: Song of Hope.
- Cha-La
Like, these episodes come out on a week by week basis; I hardly doubt they care enough to keep every single volume of Dragon Ball and consult Toriyama himself, just so they can keep things "consistent".
Like honestly, if it pisses you off that much, just consider the Anime Fanon Discontinuity and follow the manga like ![]()
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if it honestly bothers you that much.
I don't really care either way and I take both for what they are, because I prefer enjoying myself then trying to see if things make sense in a 20 year old franchise.
But Vegetto is still stronger despite that; yea, Zamasu puts up a better fight, but it's clear as day that he wasn't doing any real damage to Vegito while the latter was. Combine that with the dialogue of Zamasu's body taking damage and I'd imagine it's easy to put 2 and 2 together.
So honestly, this falls entirely on how you want to interpret the scene and events that play out; if you believe your own interpretation then I can't really argue against it since that's what you truly believe, and like you said, the scene is ambiguous enough where its hard to have anything concrete.
edited 13th Nov '16 11:02:08 AM by BlackYakuzu94
A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.No, that's wrong.
Toriyama gives Toyotarou and the anime notes. They each adapt those notes.
For all Super's faults, I strongly recommend it. It's pretty cool.
edited 13th Nov '16 11:01:54 AM by Cruherrx
"If you weren't so crazy I'd think you were insane."No, it's fact that the anime came first. And it's also fact that Toyotaro is doing his own thing at this point, since he was flat out said to be in an interview with him and Toriyama; Toriyama even says that he wouldn't mind if Toyotaro used more of his own ideas in the manga and that he wants to give him more creative control over it.
Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!![]()
He actually ran away with no way to return since it was out of fuel and Future Bulma was the only one who knew how to refuel and fix it.
Vegeta points this out and starts to dig into him, it's Goku that is going 'let's all go and kick his ass cause I wanna fight him'. Present Bulma finds Future Bulma's notes leading her to know how to fix it.
edited 13th Nov '16 11:06:54 AM by Memers
To be fair, he went back because he lacked the power at the time.
If he knew he could Deus ex Machina up himself a Power of Friendship Energy sword, he'd have probably done it much sooner.
One Strip! One Strip!![]()
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Tbh, its really depends on what you're willing to accept. Its not a bad series in any sense of the word (outside of a few areas), but the fanbase are pretty hard on it since they feel it contradicts a lot of what the Manga established and is just "shallow" fanservice. Others just take it as a fun continuation of Dragon Ball and take everything at face value, even if its pretty nonsensical at times.
So really, its a massive case of YMMV. Basically the same as GT years ago.
edited 13th Nov '16 11:05:53 AM by BlackYakuzu94
A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.![]()
I feel I need to add that it's nowhere near as bad as GT was.
That's the exact position I've had for months now.
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Well, somebody is happy Zamasu died at least.
I'm still kinda on the fence about the whole thing myself.
Edit: He also pointed out something I realized myself but forgot to mention in my first review:
Vegito isn't the miraculous warrior. Trunks is.
edited 13th Nov '16 11:27:19 AM by HandsomeRob
One Strip! One Strip!To my credit, I only watched the ep today, but read spoilers about it. So I only realized it when I saw the title of the episode and thought about what I knew had happened.
One Strip! One Strip!

Yeah, I don't like this retcon Toei has made to how fusion works. It completely undermines another aspect of Vegeta's character development during the Buu Saga.