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IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#46151: Nov 12th 2016 at 9:37:55 PM

[up][up]Vegetto went Super Saiyan against Super Buu, yes.

First level Super Saiyan. Vegetto was so powerful that his first form of Super Saiyan was stronger than Super Buu + Ultimate Gohan + Goten + Trunks + Piccolo. By such an insane margin that he deliberately decided to toy around with Buu in order to provoke an absorption.

And as for Battle of Gods - what does it matter? Beerus is supposed to be an opponent that the heroes can't defeat no matter what - of course fusion wouldn't have worked. And if Vegetto had been brought along and worfed, your point would have weight, but the thing is, Vegetto wasn't brought along and worfed. Because that's not what his narrative purpose is supposed to be.

And FYI, just because the people writing the anime think something doesn't mean that they're right. Especially when it's the same minds that come up with some of the more moronic portions of filler, not only in Dragon Ball, but also in other anime. When it comes down to it, just because they're the ones making the anime doesn't mean they're right. Even the very author of the goddamn manga can be wrong. After all, not all retcons are intentional.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
Cruherrx I say things. from my own little world Since: Apr, 2010 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
I say things.
#46152: Nov 12th 2016 at 9:42:42 PM

Eh, the only reason Vegito was toying with Buu so much was because he wanted to goad Buu into absorbing him. He doesn't have any reason to play with Zamasu.

"If you weren't so crazy I'd think you were insane."
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#46153: Nov 12th 2016 at 9:42:53 PM

So someone pointed out this entire arc is basically a Dragon Quest game, and I had a pretty good laugh at it since its basically true. Oh man, they should do that now.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Cruherrx I say things. from my own little world Since: Apr, 2010 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
I say things.
#46154: Nov 12th 2016 at 9:45:32 PM

I know this final battle was just Omega Shenron's final battle rehashed.

Zamas himself seems like a parody of all those 2deep4u anime villains that like to monologue about how deep they are.

"If you weren't so crazy I'd think you were insane."
Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#46155: Nov 12th 2016 at 9:47:53 PM

No, the fandom should never hold a high ground over the people who actually made the damn story, that's just blatant arrogance right there. And Vegito never showed up because it wouldn't have done shit; Goku was already aware that not even fusion would work against Beerus, so he saw no point at all in trying it.

Also, both Goten and Trunks were weaker than their dads, yet after their training Super Saiyan Gotenks was stronger than Goku was as a Super Saiyan 3, and was able to become 8 times stronger than that to match Super Buu, a foe Goku was terrified to actually try to fight at all. Also, we don't know how Buu's absorption even works, so for all we know it could just be additive with a minor multiplier to the combined power level. Considering how powerful Gotenks eventually became, do you really think a fusion between Goku and Vegeta, who were probably still stronger than their sons even after their training in the Room of Spirit and Time, wouldn't have a similar boost in scale?

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
Demongodofchaos2 Face me now, bitch! from In a Cultivation World (Ancient one) Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Face me now, bitch!
#46156: Nov 12th 2016 at 9:48:10 PM

[up][up]Some, like Shogo Makishima, do it better then others.

edited 12th Nov '16 9:48:36 PM by Demongodofchaos2

Watch Symphogear
hardcorefakes coolest_guy from probably America Since: Oct, 2015 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
coolest_guy
#46157: Nov 12th 2016 at 9:57:21 PM

The real question is if SSB Vegito can take on Beerus...if that's not enough to defeat Beerus, then good luck to Goku and Vegeta. Because then, the only way to beat him would be some random power-up that dwarfs even Vegito in power.

Awesomekid42 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: It was only a kiss
#46158: Nov 12th 2016 at 9:58:05 PM

So now the potarra earrings properties have been changed to only lasting an hour if not used by a Supreme Kai.

Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#46159: Nov 12th 2016 at 9:59:43 PM

[up][up] Like Super Saiyan White?

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
LordVatek Not really a lord of anything Since: Sep, 2014
Not really a lord of anything
#46160: Nov 12th 2016 at 10:00:32 PM

Well if you want to get technical, Goku and Vegeta can never top Vegetto in power. By his very nature that's impossible.

This song needs more love.
alekos23 Since: Mar, 2013
#46161: Nov 12th 2016 at 10:00:36 PM

Obviously they could go for a rage boost as Vegito.Might get Beerus to use 5% of his power.

Tomodachi Now a lurker. See you at the forums. Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Now a lurker. See you at the forums.
#46162: Nov 12th 2016 at 10:08:42 PM

So, how would you rate Black and Zamasu among the rest of the Dragon Ball villains?

These two are better than movies and GT villains for me.

To win, you need to adapt, and to adapt, you need to be able to laugh away all the restraints. Everything holding you back.
Awesomekid42 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: It was only a kiss
#46163: Nov 12th 2016 at 10:11:21 PM

I'd probably rank them below Cell and Frieza, above the other villains in the series (maybe with the exception of King Piccolo)

edited 12th Nov '16 10:13:22 PM by Awesomekid42

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#46164: Nov 12th 2016 at 10:12:05 PM

They're about as enjoyable for me; they were fun pretentious assholes.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#46165: Nov 12th 2016 at 10:13:41 PM

@Cruherrx

Thing is, if Vegetto were like the original one, he wouldn't need a reason to screw around with Zamasu. From a doylist perspective, he is supposed to be Too Powerful to Live and Too Cool to Live. That's why you come up with reasons for why he can't/doesn't stick around from the watsonian perspective, and why he acts how he acts from a watsonian standpoint.

From a doylist perspective, Vegetto toyed with Buu because it was awesome, from a watsonian perspective, Vegetto toyed with Buu in order to force an absorption.

@Gojira

Nobody is faultless. The people writing the anime are human. They make mistakes. They're not necessarily fans of the show. Sometimes, they don't know shit about it. And sometimes, they need to accomodate the mandates of higher ups and this creates problems.

There's a shitton of reasons why you can call bullshit on something the creator says or does, and even something that is on the pages of the manga itself, none of which are borne of arrogance.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
Tomodachi Now a lurker. See you at the forums. Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Now a lurker. See you at the forums.
#46166: Nov 12th 2016 at 10:16:39 PM

[up]> They are Ningen

That explains a lot

edited 12th Nov '16 10:18:47 PM by Tomodachi

To win, you need to adapt, and to adapt, you need to be able to laugh away all the restraints. Everything holding you back.
Awesomekid42 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: It was only a kiss
#46167: Nov 12th 2016 at 10:17:12 PM

Am I the only one who found the change of how the potarra earnings work only for an hour for non-kai's unneeded? Vegito's power was too great to even last the hour. If they assumed it would be permanent and then say that it was too powerful to maintain, nothing would change.

Ah well. Really liked the episode, though the ending with Trunks, as awesome as it was, felt a bit like an Ass Pull to me.

edited 12th Nov '16 10:17:58 PM by Awesomekid42

IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#46168: Nov 12th 2016 at 10:18:55 PM

That, too. They could've gotten away by saying that Vegetto simply transforming into SSJB was destabilizing the Potara because he was too powerful, or they couldn't keep up with a mortal suddenly becoming a God, or anything that didn't require retconning in a time limit when the fusion was explicitly said to be permanent.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#46169: Nov 12th 2016 at 10:24:32 PM

I still say you're wrong about that interpretation IANCE, simply because you made it based only on your own opinion on what Vegito is supposed to be like, and not how the creators actually use him.

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
LOLypop1224 ...what am I even DOING here? Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
...what am I even DOING here?
#46170: Nov 12th 2016 at 10:32:43 PM

Saying Vegetto is supposed to be anything at all feel like reaching for me. He was mostly a plot device used to make sure Gotenks and Gohan were out of the way for the final battle, while undoing all those powerups that made it practically impossible for Goku and Vegeta to win on their own.

It almost feel like this was a test. Like, a test by Toei to see how badly people wanted Vegetto, and, if it turns out to sell, to bring him back again.

The *Legendary* Super Saiyan is motivated by a crying infant! He is a literal giant f***ing baby!
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#46171: Nov 12th 2016 at 10:41:02 PM

Really, I just think people got their hopes up for something that wasn't going to happen; everyone was making a big deal out of Vegetto as if he was going to magically solve the entire plot, when he was just as superfluous in his debut appearance too.

Its like, what did people actually expect him to accomplish?

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#46172: Nov 12th 2016 at 10:48:07 PM

Alas, poor Zamasu. I hated him.

This is the most anime episode of Dragon Ball ever.

Indeed.

This episode went from an awesome Vegito fight to Trunks murdering the villain with the power of hopes and dreams.

Since when did Vegito have a time limit?

I can never get enough of Zamasu being dominated and thrown around. Good job on that antagonist, he is fun to hate.

That, too, made this episode fun. Zamasu's so deep in the koolaid the only option left is obliteration.

Also, this fight was a beat for beat copy of the Omega Shenron fight from GT. Like, it's a blatant ripoff of it, but like 100x more entertaining.

...source? Apart from the Final Kamehameha, I don't recall Gogeta or Goku using IT against Omega. This wasn't even a curbstomp battle, as others have pointed out.

Toyotarou will save you down the road.

I might have to cave and pick up the manga. Pretty visuals aside this episode was all over the place in quality. I'd like to think it's just this arc. We'll see how Toyotaro works things.

a sword reforged from ki, a maybe!retcon, *a crying Zamasu*,

It's the little things. Vegetto returning the favor with that Spirit Sword made me smile.

I'm just glad that Trunks got the finishing blow. Anyone else would have been lame.

Least he got to "finish" his Arc Villain this time.

nd I should have expected it from Toei.

I need to come up with some kind of digital coin jar for this kind of thing. <,<

Honestly the fact that Gogeta was only needed to soften up Zamasu for Trunks to end him plotwise was a real letdown, especially after we just now got to see him after all these years.

...I feel like we're doing this on purpose.

Not only was Vegeto nowhere near as entertaining as he was back in his original appearance

Eh, my takeaway from this episode was Goku punking Zamasu with that Super Kaioken Blue (short but sweet) and the sub saying "King Kai's Fist!"

Seriously the Spirit Sword counterattack impressed no one? That was the best part of the episode. Right next to Trunks murdering an evil god with the Sword of Sunshine and Dreams.

He should've been fighting Zamasu with his back turned the entire time, or using only one hand, or entirely by poking him - he should be treating Zamasu like a joke. That is what you do with Vegetto, that's what he's there for.

He wasn't as funny or as cocky, but really, I didn't see a problem here.

  • Moment he showed up he had a cocky look on his face.
  • He named his Super Form just like he did before.
  • He mocked Zamasu's speech right off the bat.
  • Punched him before he could finish.
  • Mocked him while punching him.
  • "Are you in pain? Aren't you supposed to be immortal?"

The difference being he wasn't dramatically above his opponent in strength, but this made it seem more like a fight than an hour of Vegito wasting time for no apparent reason other than stroking his ego. We learn why Vegito ran the clock later but before then there's no reason to assume that's why he was doing it.

fusions only last an hour now, Vegito originally defused because it was an hour

Problem being didn't Old Kai SPECIFICALLY say that the fusion was permanent and couldn't be undone? Hence the drama behind Goku picking the right person. If it only lasted an hour he'd have less to worry about.

Beerus already makes most of Dragonball look ridiculous in hindsight, we just gotta go with it at this point. It lasted an hour either because Toei wrote themselves into a corner giving away too many powerups, or because Vegito makes every fight a joke and they let a plot hole/retcon slide so Trunks could steal the win.

Watch the manga:

  • Not give Trunks a god form.
  • Skip Super Saiyan Sakura.
  • Actually explain why Black is unphased by Super Saiyan Blue.
  • Explain what the f'ck Black's scythe does.
  • Not give Trunks the power of hopes and dreams and just have him finish Zamasu with the Burning Attack.
  • Explain how Trunks magic'd his sword back together.

edited 12th Nov '16 10:53:48 PM by Soble

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#46173: Nov 12th 2016 at 10:57:39 PM

There's also the fact that Vegetto 2 and a half episodes in Z to show off, while he's only in a third of this one. So of course he comes off as a bit less entertaining.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#46174: Nov 12th 2016 at 10:58:26 PM

Easy explanation for how Trunks could get an intact sword:

"I had another in a capsule. It's just a sword."

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#46175: Nov 12th 2016 at 11:02:59 PM

Old Kai's only experience with Potara fusion was also with himself as part of it; he could probably just not know about that little part.

Also, no one was impressed by Trunks cutting Zamasu in half groin first? Take that man pain you bastard! tongue

Also also, it's going to take like 4 to 5 months before Toyotaro gets to this point in the manga you know; we've also completely skipped Goku's fight with Black in the present and his fight with Zamasu, and for all we know Toyotaro might add Super Saiyan White into his manga or something, or just give Trunks Super Saiyan Blue after a day or two of training with Vegeta.

[up] I mean, there would still need to be someone alive to forge the sword for him in the first place, and we don't know if that person ended up dying when Black came to town.

edited 12th Nov '16 11:04:25 PM by Ssj3Gojira

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!

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