You took my job IANCE! What am I supposed to do now?
Anyway, the thing with Frieza is different. Yes, he was willing to let him go, but that was more of a Cruel Mercy. Frieza shat all over that, and twice. I truly believe Frieza should be high on the list of people Goku should not be so forgiving towards.
I look at what happened with Pure Buu as something he took advantage of when he had the chance. Buu was just a mindless berserker. He never really chose to do what he did. So Goku had him reborn so he could be better and give him a good fight (and maybe because he wanted to be 100% sure Buu wouldn't come back since if even a piece of him was left, they'd have to go through this shit all over again).
As for the video posted earlier, I watched that one too. I think Masako has a point there. Here's an interesting fact: in another of Masako's videos, he revealed that Toriyama met with the dude who designed Super Saiyan 4, and that he drew his own version of it. That's kinda like saying he liked it. I never thought I'd hear something like that. I'm kinda in a weird place with Super Saiyan 4, because it's technically not impossible (we at least know that Super Saiyan Oozaru is possible since it was hinted that's how the first Super Saiyan came about).
It lends credence to my 'Super Saiyan 3 would be more stable with a tail idea. Really makes me wish Toriyama hadn't abandoned it and instead just came up with a way for the Saiyans to control their transformations instead (if Vegeta can control himself while changed, why can all of them learn to control when they transform even when looking at the moon).
edited 11th Nov '16 8:24:03 AM by HandsomeRob
One Strip! One Strip!Giant ape transformations are not very self-insert heroic and that's the key, it's a final boss form at most. Vegeta didn't even start his turn to Token Evil Teammate till he lost his tail for example.
Even in GT it wasn't a good guy thing as 4 took its place.
Ok fine.
![]()
's idea of 4 permanently replacing giant ape is better actually.
I mean, since the idea of the corruption of the dragon balls has been deconstructed over why it's stupid, 4 is one of the few things from GT that I can actually still like.
I think it could have worked pretty well (though it's completely surpassed by the God powers I'd say), but it's pretty rare for Toriyama to fully adopt other peoples ideas (so far, Bardock is the only thing that he added to his own canon, and even then, he did it in his own way).
One Strip! One Strip!The concept of Beerus as well.
Xenoverse treats SSJ 4 as decently close to the God forms, by the way.
Well Xenoverse is probably wrong. though we can't really be sure until Toriyama puts it in himself.
I thought Beerus was his idea?
One Strip! One Strip!Beerus' original concept was more like Demigra before Toriyama said 'nah, son, let me show you how to do this', and made the Crazy Awesome cat god we all know and love today.
Actually, I have a morbid curiousity regarding what Battle Of Gods could've been like with corruptor Beerus and caped Super Saiyan God.
Huh. Go figure.
.....It had a damn cape?
.....See. This is why Gohan should have stayed the big hero.
x4 Here's the thing, Xenoverse was using the movie version of Battle of Gods in its events; as a whole, the God level fighters would be pretty close to GT levels, due to scaling with how powerful Goku became, the Super Saiyan 4 boost, and how Goku seemed to get stronger through every Saga. As of Super though all of them transcend everything GT should be capable of, with even Super Saiyan 4 Gogeta being child's play to the God fighters.
Atsushi Kido, DB Super Producer, Puts Goku Black "Second" To Beerus In Terms Of Power
Huh.
Well A god in the body of a being with God power who grows stronger in battle would become pretty powerful.
One Strip! One Strip!Funny, because when I'm proven wrong, I admit so and move on.
However, none of you are doing absolutely anything to prove me wrong. The argument that you all keep using is "he totally wouldn't forgive Freeza!" when I'm never arguing that he would. I am saying that Goku does not hold grudges like you all seem to assume he does.
I am not saying Goku would forgive everything Freeza just like that. I am saying that what Freeza did matters much less to Goku than what you think it does. To you, Freeza is a Complete Monster, but to Goku, his past does not matter in the slightest, only what he does now.
Goku counts Yamcha, who tried to leave him stranded on a desert, as one of his allies. He counts Tien, a former assassin and all around bad person, as an ally. He counts Piccolo, the reincarnation of a guy who killed his best friend (by proxy, yes, but it was Piccolo who ordered Krillin's death), as an ally, even if he originally spared Piccolo to spare Kami.
Vegeta flat out resulted in the deaths of some of his friends, something which at the time Goku thought was permanent because Piccolo was dead, damn near killed his son and best friend multiple times, again, damn near permanently, flat out tried to destroy the entire planet and crushed every bone in Goku's body for no reason other than because his ego demanded it, and yet Goku flat out let him go because he wanted to fight Vegeta again.
What Freeza did to Goku is no more heinous than what Vegeta did. What makes you think Goku wouldn't do the same thing he did with Vegeta? Especially when sparing Vegeta actually turned out so well for them (since without him, everyone would've been boned in the Namek saga).
And of course, it also never ceases to amuse me how quick people are to resort to the same tired "oh he'll never budge, no matter how wrong you prove him", when you don't have any argument that actually proves me wrong.
Because, and this might shock you, I do actually accept that I am wrong and move on when it is proven to me that I am. But you see, unlike Saiga, who outright quotes the pages to prove that he is right, all you people are doing is insisting that you are right while providing no actual backing for it, because you think that Goku thinks like you do, when this is explicitly not the case. You think that what Freeza did is unforgivable, but to Goku, if Freeza said that he has changed his ways and will no longer enslave people under his tyrannic rule and instead wants to spar with him, guess what Goku will do.
himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimariExcept Goku should never believe that; he's given him two chances in the past to change, now three, and he always throws them away to try and kill him. Goku should know by now that Frieza will never change, and that there are some people who never will.
Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!I didn't specifically say you were wrong about this situation, just that you don't give an inch no matter what, and from things here and in the Naruto thread I firmly stand by that statement.
I don't recall you ever a situation where you've ever admitted being off about something. Maybe someone else does, nothing comes to mind.
edited 11th Nov '16 11:48:09 AM by LSBK
![]()
See, here's the thing, you're saying "he shouldnt' believe that! He should know better!"
But you forget to ask yourself the question: "Would he believe that? Does he know better?"
Goku is not as dumb as people like to think he is, but the fact that he gave Freeza yet another chance should tell you something.
himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimariWhile Goku would be like "okay whatever", I'm fairly sure more people than Vegeta would want him dead. Or at least far away from them.
@LSBK
Say, imagine this:
You have your opinion on something. You are arguing with someone who has a different opinion on that thing. That person is trying to convince you that he is right, but is failing to do so. That person has provided no actual evidence backing their opinion, they are just telling you that they are right and you are wrong.
Do you, like you said, give ground to that person?
Of course not. You don't 'give ground' unless the other person proves that they are right.
And as for the other thing... well, one example I can recall off the top of my head was, I think, in the Dragon Ball fanfiction thread, where unnoun produced evidence that the remote controllers were to turn off the androids and not blow up their chest bombs. When it was brought up, I accepted it and pointed out that it's still nonsensical. True, but nonsensical (like Mr. Satan being a coward - fucking dumb as hell, but still canon because Toriyama).
edited 11th Nov '16 11:53:21 AM by IAmNotCreativeEnough
himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimariI mean, if the argument is that Goku would be cool with Frieza around if he stopped being evil than sure, basically everyone around him is cool with stuff like that. The think the point being made is that Goku doesn't believe that Frieza will stop being evil though, and it doesn't mean that Goku can't hate the guy while he's evil.
Maybe I missed the point of this discussion.
edited 11th Nov '16 11:52:19 AM by LSBK

Ugh. This will never not be annoying, mostly because it's not based on any sentiment Gohan has ever expressed himself, and just what fans project onto the character.
Edit: And on IANCE, I would think you guys would realize by this point that what the characters actually say and how they react to things doesn't matter when he's arguing a point. He'll just keep going with it no matter how much you point out why what he's saying is wrong (or at the very least why it's not absolutely the case).
edited 11th Nov '16 7:22:30 AM by LSBK