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IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#45576: Nov 2nd 2016 at 4:53:32 PM

Toriyama does love his subversions.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#45577: Nov 2nd 2016 at 6:45:46 PM

But this wouldn't be a subversion.

Him not actually being strong (though he's not powerful in the fighting sense, but in the just needs to blink sense) would be something we'd expect.

One Strip! One Strip!
LordVatek Not really a lord of anything Since: Sep, 2014
Not really a lord of anything
#45578: Nov 2nd 2016 at 6:56:08 PM

By this point, we've all become accustomed to Toriyama's whole "weaker looking character is strong" shtick by this point so Zeno not actually being strong at all would be a subversion.

This song needs more love.
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#45579: Nov 2nd 2016 at 7:02:43 PM

Not after Monaka.

IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#45580: Nov 2nd 2016 at 7:35:33 PM

Ah, but y'see, that's what he's expecting you to think. You'd think "well, he just did it with Monaka, he wouldn't do it again, would he?"

And that's when he gets you by doing it again.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#45581: Nov 2nd 2016 at 8:24:48 PM

Ah, but we'd expect that he'd expect that we'd expect that he wouldn't do it again. If he's aware of that then he, indeed, wouldn't do it again.

Let the joy of love give you an answer! Check out my book!
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#45582: Nov 2nd 2016 at 8:28:36 PM

Honestly, I think he's now trying to do the subversion less because they work and more because it's just what he does.

I feel like there were a few moments where playing expectations straight might have worked better, but as we all know, I'm a filthy human lover, so you can just ignore me.tongue

P.S: Destructo Disk needs to work more often and bring back Kaiouken

edited 2nd Nov '16 8:28:56 PM by HandsomeRob

One Strip! One Strip!
LordVatek Not really a lord of anything Since: Sep, 2014
Not really a lord of anything
#45583: Nov 2nd 2016 at 8:39:34 PM

Well to be fair, he's really abused it since Battle of Gods. Before, there was Vegeta, Frieza Form 4, 17 & 18, regular Majin Buu, and Kid Buu (though I would argue that Kid Buu wasn't really an example because, while still strong, he was arguably weaker than the more imposing Super Buu with Gohan Absorbed) but there have been plenty of characters that look as strong as they actually are, like Perfect Cell, Full Power Frieza, Transformed Zarbon, Super Saiyan in general (but especially 2 and 3), and the aforementioned Gohan Super Buu among others.

This song needs more love.
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#45584: Nov 2nd 2016 at 9:08:59 PM

You left off First Form Frieza. And Pure/Kid Buu being weaker than Super Buu isn't really debatable.

Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#45585: Nov 2nd 2016 at 9:18:13 PM

Yeah. Pure Boo is the absolute weakest form of Majin Boo. The fact that its the super transformation for the Majins in Xenoverse 2 is pure bullshit.

Let the joy of love give you an answer! Check out my book!
Zeromaeus Since: May, 2010
#45586: Nov 2nd 2016 at 9:29:59 PM

That Lani's script had Absorbtion listed as that move, it makes me wish for what could have been.

edited 2nd Nov '16 9:30:16 PM by Zeromaeus

Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#45587: Nov 2nd 2016 at 9:31:43 PM

Pure Buu would technically be stronger than Mr Buu, and in all honesty he's probably stronger than Evil Buu.

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
Demetrios Making darkness adorable since 1999 from Des Plaines, Illinois (unfortunately) Since: Oct, 2009 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Making darkness adorable since 1999
#45588: Nov 2nd 2016 at 11:30:32 PM

I remember in a poll in a Dragon Ball/Dragon Ball Z magazine I had in the past, it said that Cell was the most popular villain and Frieza was a very close second.

Come on! Let's bless them all until we get fershnickered!
LOLypop1224 ...what am I even DOING here? Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
...what am I even DOING here?
#45589: Nov 3rd 2016 at 1:25:29 AM

I mean, the only other options in Z are Vegeta (who isn't really a villain by the end) and Buu (who has literally 3 forms with completely different personalities, so its hard to say "it's my favourite" rather than "a specific form of his is my favourite". And nobody watched Dragon Ball, so the Piccolos are out. That's basically everyone.

The *Legendary* Super Saiyan is motivated by a crying infant! He is a literal giant f***ing baby!
Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#45590: Nov 3rd 2016 at 1:42:29 AM

Zarbon, Dodoria, Kiwi, the Ginyu Force, and Androids 19 and 20 all say "Hi."

Let the joy of love give you an answer! Check out my book!
Memers Since: Aug, 2013
#45591: Nov 3rd 2016 at 1:52:21 AM

Non Arc Villains don't really count and get forgotten often.

Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#45592: Nov 3rd 2016 at 2:16:06 AM

Who could possibly forget the Ginyu Force?

Let the joy of love give you an answer! Check out my book!
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#45593: Nov 3rd 2016 at 2:30:13 AM

People always complain that the characters don't do the logical thing and make things harder for themselves. But now doing the logical think would be ruining the series.

Unpleasable Fanbase really is a thing.

It's really not. There is more involved than just reducing it to something that simple.

The issue is making the logical thing an action that would be terrible for the story. You can't really blame the fanbase when a writer deliberately engineers two shitty directions for the story to go in.

Not after Monaka.

More like before Monaka. The issue is that Toriyama has tried to subvert expectations by only ever going in the opposite of whatever he thinks people are expecting. He's repeated this trick too often, and made it too extreme. When you've got a 50% chance of guessing whatever his intent is, and a 100% chance of knowing what the other possible intent is, that's not very subversive writing.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#45594: Nov 3rd 2016 at 6:27:31 AM

What other options are there for Zeno-Sama aside from 'he's the strongest being in existence' and 'he's not the strongest being in existence'?

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#45595: Nov 3rd 2016 at 6:37:28 AM

That's kind of my point. It's silly to try to be subversive while dealing only with dichtomies

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#45596: Nov 3rd 2016 at 8:20:41 AM

Hey, maybe...writing is more complicated than "X is Y" and "X is not Y" and has a lot of different variables :V

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#45597: Nov 3rd 2016 at 8:48:11 AM

More like before Monaka. The issue is that Toriyama has tried to subvert expectations by only ever going in the opposite of whatever he thinks people are expecting. He's repeated this trick too often, and made it too extreme. When you've got a 50% chance of guessing whatever his intent is, and a 100% chance of knowing what the other possible intent is, that's not very subversive writing.

Exactly. I mean, I'd say the last real surprise he churned out was having Goku lose to Beerus in Battle of Gods.

The rest of the time, we know that any other attempt at stopping the villain will fail, and Goku will punch the hell out of it.

Look at the tournament. They had 5 fighters they could have done great things with, and what happened: Monaka was a waste of a slot on purpose, Buu gets eliminated before the fights even start, meaning there was no point in him even being there, Goku goes first just to get taken out by a cheater so he could be saved for later anyway, Vegeta forces Piccolo to forfeit a battle to satisfy his ego, and for some reason he decided we needed another evil Frieza after we'd already had the real Frieza one arc earlier.

He needs to stop subverting expectation, and start subverting himself perhaps. You have other characters, and while they do have interesting lives and such, maybe it wouldn't be such a bad idea to use them instead of always falling back on Goku (who I know he loves quite a bit, and I won't fault him for that), maybe do stuff with the other characters. Seeing someone else do something when they usually can't would be a real subversion to me.

One Strip! One Strip!
Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#45598: Nov 3rd 2016 at 11:12:49 AM

I laughed at the Goku Black clones and scythe

Goku Black: "I've become so powerful even I don't know what my powers are anymore"

I don't know if it's just Black not being my favorite Z villain ever, but I wasn't fond of this either. I've never imagined "giant energy scythes" in Dragonball and it clashes with everything I've ever known Dragonball for. It's like if there was an episode of Yugioh where they dropped card games entirely and just resorted to handhelds, or if Pokemon started wearing armor and carrying weapons.

That said, Black and Zamasu's apparent self-awareness is great.

Toei is bad.

Ah-ha!!!

I definitely agree with this. And if Goku is willing to use it here, it's going to mean things need to get far more ridiculous to have any tension in addition to completely deflating this arc.

I mean, we already have Goku and Beerus nearly wrecking the fabric of reality just by punching each other really hard. Goku moving faster than time and Trunks and Vegeta mysteriously developing godly ki.

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!
randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#45599: Nov 3rd 2016 at 12:01:31 PM

Ki blades are fine, but a Ki scythe is too much?

Where's the line?

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#45600: Nov 3rd 2016 at 12:21:59 PM

It's less the scythe and more the weird ass power it gave him, and it'd not even explained well either.

First he says it's time rift...then he starts dumping clones from it...like ok. If it just gave him some fancy slash attack and a Sword Beamer, fine.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.

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