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HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#44801: Oct 10th 2016 at 8:32:21 PM

I knew Black was just trying to make people suffer.

Sure, they really don't want to destroy the planet, but I still go the impression they didn't need to drag things out as much as they did.

Edit: I just realized Beerus was right! His actions should have had an affect on Trunks' timeline it seems. We all took it for granted because nothing Trunks did in the main timeline ever affected his own (the other warriors are still dead, and 17 and 18 are still evil) but it seems that the only reason Black is even still around is due to his Time Ring since he's from the main timeline, even if it's an alternate version of that timeline.

edited 10th Oct '16 8:35:04 PM by HandsomeRob

One Strip! One Strip!
RJ-19-CLOVIS-93 from New Zealand (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#44802: Oct 10th 2016 at 11:01:10 PM

As asked before, could you kill Goku Black by removing that ring? We don't see him take it off

Goku Black actually reminds me of Dark Danny. They're an evil version of the main character through combining them with a villain. They even have the time travel aspect down, and like Dark Danny Goku Black has broken out of causality. Admittedly it's in reverse with Zamasu/Goku Black; instead of the good character being corrupted by gaining a villain's attributes, it's a villain being corrupted by the hero's characteristics.

As The Mind Is a Plaything of the Body, that raises the question of what might've happened to Goku's personality if he spent enough time in Zamasu's body. Also, given his general creeper nature I wonder what Goku Black did with his corpse

randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#44803: Oct 10th 2016 at 11:07:20 PM

Why would he have done anything to his corpse? DB villains seem content with just leaving a body after it's dead, so there's no reason to assume he did anything to it.

He could've made a wish to have the body constantly revive upon death so he could keep killing Karrot, that would've been cool.

Due to narrative structure, they didn't also swap voices...thas neat.

edited 10th Oct '16 11:12:04 PM by randomness4

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#44804: Oct 10th 2016 at 11:27:13 PM

Finally saw the most recent episode. Totally called the Time Ring being the only thing keeping Black around. I wonder what this means for Trunks, though.

Will Black disappear the moment that ring is destroyed/separated from him, and if so will everything he did be erased as well? Will Future Zamasu go bad anyway? Will Trunks' bad-to-worse future return to being a recovering Bad Future, with everyone forgetting this entire arc - and if so, will it cycle back and influence the "main" timeline as well? Or will there be a whole other level of time travel shenanigans to stick this quagmire together like duct tape?

Black-Masu pulling it on Trunks made me realize how rare it is for DB villains to try the "all this evil stuff I'm doing is actually your fault for vague reasons" "The Reason You Suck" Speech, at least not the extended version that leads to It's All My Fault. But then, Zamasu is an enormous hypocrite (totally loved Vegeta calling him out on how his vision of a perfect utopia makes absolutely no sense) whereas a lot of DB Big Bads are Card Carriers who embrace the fact that they're doing terrible things, and wouldn't really care if a heroic character initially led them to do it - let alone try to stuff it in their face. Trunks, being our universe's eternally tortured hero, falls for it in a way no other Dragon Ball character would.

It never hit me that Black was abusing the same incredibly unfair power-up mechanic our heroes have been for years rather than having some divine/ethereal reason for constantly getting stronger. Between this and Hit, this series has been doing a lot of fun lampshading of the franchise's love of Plot Relevant Power Up.

edited 10th Oct '16 11:28:46 PM by KnownUnknown

alekos23 Since: Mar, 2013
#44805: Oct 11th 2016 at 12:05:27 AM

Black's Zenkai isn't really normal.It's more like Broly's fan wank Zenkai.

DarkHunter from New Mexico Since: Jan, 2001
#44806: Oct 11th 2016 at 12:07:11 AM

I would imagine it's more effective (in that any damage at all seems to power Black up, and instantly) due to Zamasu's "godhood" affecting the mortal body. Kind of like how his Super Saiyan form is different from the blue versions Goku and Vegeta have acquired.

alekos23 Since: Mar, 2013
#44807: Oct 11th 2016 at 12:10:37 AM

Heh.Black's SSJ hair is Zamasu's hair colour.

randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#44808: Oct 11th 2016 at 12:18:56 AM

I thought Broli's fan-wank was that he's constantly rising in power...as an LSSJ.

edited 11th Oct '16 12:19:19 AM by randomness4

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
alekos23 Since: Mar, 2013
#44809: Oct 11th 2016 at 1:04:48 AM

That.Some Fanwank tries to explain that fanwank by saying that LSSJ induces infinite Zenkai.

Kinda similar to Black's deal.

randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#44810: Oct 11th 2016 at 1:14:53 AM

It's already infinite...

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
GAP Formerly G.G. from Who Knows? Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: In love with love
Formerly G.G.
#44811: Oct 11th 2016 at 3:52:17 AM

Here is some speculation about the time travel int he series.

"Mai waifu."
Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#44812: Oct 11th 2016 at 4:44:38 AM

-grabs pencil and starts poking holes-

The part that bugs me is why would Black Zamasu go to/be able to travel to Trunks's timeline?

  • In the original present timeline we have our time loop, with Trunks initating the loop so to speak.
  • Trunks informs Goku about Black - as predicted, Goku's actions meeting Zamasu set events in motion.
  • In our original Zamasu timeline, this meeting occurs and Zamasu's hatred grows.
  • So he doesn't jack-diddly until deciding to off Gowasu.

But problem: in this Z timeline, even though Black exists as part of the loop, we see Black kill Goku and his family at the very start of Super, while Goku is still wearing his farming clothes, meaning Goku couldn't have met Beerus or Whis, or gone to meet Black. Unless we're meant to assume that in this original timeline/loop Goku just went back home to farm.

  • Gowasu shows Zamasu the Time Rings because of the meeting with Goku/B/W.
  • Zamasu offs him, wishes for Goku's body, and kills Goku.
  • So Zamasu, IIRC, went for a timeline where Beerus was already dead.
    • How did Zamasu do this? How did he know to find Trunks's timeline? Trunks's timeline is the only one where Beerus died because of Supreme Kai's death?
    • Since when can the Supreme Kai travel across dimensions? Did Zamasu use the Super Dragonballs to do this, or the Time Ring? Wasn't it explained that the time rings can only go forward and that it should be impossible to go backward, unless obviously it reacts to a time rift like the one made by Trunk's machine?
      • According to the wiki the Silver Ring lets you travel to any of the other timelines - source? But assuming that's true I guess Black could've just used each ring and gone to see what that timeline looked like, and since there are only four and 1 is Trunks's he would've found it soon enough.
      • Problem with that still being that Black would only be able to travel to the future, and Trunks's timeline is technically not "the future."
      • And Black isn't from Trunks's timeline. If he were, he wouldn't have any conceivable way of knowing about Goku. Black is from our main timeline. So he had to have find out about Trunks's timeline on his own.
  • So Beerus kills Present Zamasu. This would end the loop/undo everything if not for the Time Ring.

edited 11th Oct '16 5:00:50 AM by Soble

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!
Cruherrx I say things. from my own little world Since: Apr, 2010 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
I say things.
#44813: Oct 11th 2016 at 4:47:53 AM

I'm with Saiga on the who-gives-a-fuck train when it comes to Trunks' new form. I'm just rolling with the punches now.

Super needs to realize that if it doesn't have any fidelity to the concepts of power tiers then there's absolutely no way it can drum up any drama or sense of danger. If characters are as strong as they need to be at any given point, the viewer can't get invested.

"If you weren't so crazy I'd think you were insane."
Eriorguez Since: Jun, 2009
#44814: Oct 11th 2016 at 5:43:43 AM

Characters were as strong as they needed to be in the source material as well. Trying to make sense of that is one thing, but pretending your headcanons are real is laughable.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#44815: Oct 11th 2016 at 6:13:17 AM

The only thing that's laughable is your own response, making assumptions about someone's "headcanons" when you don't even know what they are.

The manga was much more consistent about characters' strengths than Toei's adaptations have ever been. While it has had some shaky moments in regards to extreme/abusable power-ups, characters don't just fluctuate in strength without an in-story reason.

Unless you can provide some actual examples to justify your claim.

In general, Toei's works have always played it fast and loose in a way that made it clearly different to the manga, Super is nothing new. It's just more pronounced than something like the Z anime, likely as a result of adaptation a much less defined source material.

Eriorguez Since: Jun, 2009
#44816: Oct 11th 2016 at 7:09:03 AM

Piccolo becoming the strongest character in the heroes' side twice, because he was needed at the moment.

The story was written on the run, long term consistency is quite unlikely. And yeah, Toei fucked that up, but, yeah, good luck finding continuity in a series where the author forgets about characters.

Cruherrx I say things. from my own little world Since: Apr, 2010 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
I say things.
#44817: Oct 11th 2016 at 7:15:52 AM

Piccolo had a reason for those power ups. Super doesn't give reasons for characters' power levels just jumping around.

That's all they need to do to make this shit more palatable. And for extra points, make it something the characters couldn't do at any previous point in the story.

If yelling really hard is all it takes for characters to shoot past the villains (Gohan was the only person that could do this in the original, and his rage boosts never had him actually beating anyone; he had to train like everyone else), then drama is impossible because you'll just be waiting for the characters to... yell really loudly.

edited 11th Oct '16 7:19:26 AM by Cruherrx

"If you weren't so crazy I'd think you were insane."
Hobgoblin Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#44818: Oct 11th 2016 at 7:36:14 AM

...Did Trunks just turn into Broly?

I really wish Toriyama would tone it down with the new(?) transformations or last minute deus ex machina power-ups.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#44819: Oct 11th 2016 at 7:38:51 AM

We don't actually know if this is Toriyama, or if Toei is bullshiting something.

We'll see when the Manga gets to this point.

One Strip! One Strip!
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#44820: Oct 11th 2016 at 7:50:54 AM

Yeah, I don't care what Future Trunks is doing. Especially because I don't watch the anime.

randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#44821: Oct 11th 2016 at 7:56:40 AM

[up][up][up]Super Trunks was already Broli...but he use to have pupils.

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#44822: Oct 11th 2016 at 7:57:21 AM

And if he powers up in the manga? [lol]

I'm genuinely curious if that's a "Toei-ism" and what, if anything, the manga is going to differently. Because Trunks should be so dead right now, him holding the line is absurd. Thematic, since Trunks was in this exact same situation before and got wrecked, but still absurd. Or maybe Vegeta will stick around. Although with Blue being Blessed with Suck in the manga, maybe Black and Zamasu are just weaker.

I like Black and Zamasu working together - they just hate mankind and want them all dead just because, they work in perfectly in synch, and they're stronger than the latest form the heroes have unlocked. For any issues I might have with them the similarity to the Android arc is neat.

edited 11th Oct '16 8:00:33 AM by Soble

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!
Envyus Since: Jun, 2011
#44823: Oct 11th 2016 at 7:57:35 AM

@ Soble All of these questions were already answered in the series.

The part that bugs me is why would Black Zamasu go to/be able to travel to Trunks's timeline?
Will get to this as I address your points.

In the original present timeline we have our time loop, with Trunks initating the loop so to speak. Trunks informs Goku about Black - as predicted, Goku's actions meeting Zamasu set events in motion. In our original Zamasu timeline, this meeting occurs and Zamasu's hatred grows. So he doesn't jack-diddly until deciding to off Gowasu.
The Trunks meeting Goku and telling him about Zamasu still happened. The exact same scenaro played out as in the show but Zamasu was not killed by Beerus and got the time ring.

But problem: in this Z timeline, even though Black exists as part of the loop, we see Black kill Goku and his family at the very start of Super, while Goku is still wearing his farming clothes, meaning Goku couldn't have met Beerus or Whis, or gone to meet Black. Unless we're meant to assume that in this original timeline/loop Goku just went back home to farm
Goku just went home. Zamasu's bodyswap with Goku happened over a year into the future when he traveled using the Time Ring. Around the time the swap happened Goku was farming. Cause Goku does farm, we see him do so at several different times during the series. Generally when nothing is happening
Gowasu shows Zamasu the Time Rings because of the meeting with Goku/B/W. Zamasu offs him, wishes for Goku's body, and kills Goku. So Zamasu, IIRC, went for a timeline where Beerus was already dead. How did Zamasu do this? How did he know to find Trunks's timeline? Trunks's timeline is the only one where Beerus died because of Supreme Kai's death?
Because Gowasu told him we even saw that happen. There was the time ring for the main timeline along with a few for the branch timelines. After murdering Gowasu and stealing Goku's body Zamasu retreated to another timeline using the timerings. The one he stayed around in was Future Trunks'
Since when can the Supreme Kai travel across dimensions? Did Zamasu use the Super Dragonballs to do this, or the Time Ring? Wasn't it explained that the time rings can only go forward and that it should be impossible to go backward, unless obviously it reacts to a time rift like the one made by Trunk's machine?
Uh there is nothing stopping them from doing this. We saw the Kais and stuff meet up from different universe's and the Universe 7 Supreme Kai can freely teleport most places including Zen'o's palace. I doubt it's exclusive to him. Black has also not used to the Ring to go back in time except when he followed the rift.
According to the wiki the Silver Ring lets you travel to any of the other timelines - source? But assuming that's true I guess Black could've just used each ring and gone to see what that timeline looked like, and since there are only four and 1 is Trunks's he would've found it soon enough.
As I said earlier Gowasu told Zamasu how the time rings worked. And how the silver rings can be used to go to alternate time lines
Problem with that still being that Black would only be able to travel to the future, and Trunks's timeline is technically not "the future."[[quoteblock]] How so it's still the future. Also the Time Rings can also be used to go back to the present. He used one of the silver time ring to go there as they can be used to shift to a different timeline. [[quoteblock]]And Black isn't from Trunks's timeline. If he were, he wouldn't have any conceivable way of knowing about Goku. Black is from our main timeline. So he had to have find out about Trunks's timeline on his own.
Correct he is from the main one. There is no mystery he used the Time Ring to retreat from the main one to Trunks'. He could have just used each of the alt timeline rings until he found a time line he wanted.
So Beerus kills Present Zamasu. This would end the loop/undo everything if not for the Time Ring.
Correct. The Time Ring removed Black from causality if he was not wearing that he should have been erased when his past self was destroyed. He came into existence when Whis and Beerus allowed him to kill Gowasu to confirm his guilt before the do over. Once he did that and obtained the role of Supreme Kai and the time ring he was removed from causality and Whis's do over had not effect on him.

edited 11th Oct '16 7:59:02 AM by Envyus

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#44824: Oct 11th 2016 at 8:00:31 AM

[up][up]Hopefully by then it'll make more sense. I expect Future Trunks to have Super Saiyan Blue in the manga.

Envyus Since: Jun, 2011
#44825: Oct 11th 2016 at 8:01:02 AM

[up][up][up],[up]Trunks already had a weird power up in the manga during his fight with Goku

Also I would say the Anime is better then the manga in my opinon for super. It's for the most part done the stuff better for me. (Particularity the Hit fight.)

edited 11th Oct '16 8:01:57 AM by Envyus


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