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HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#44501: Oct 4th 2016 at 2:08:02 PM

I suppose it could have worked, but I'm satisfied with what we got.

I think it showed that Tien not only was done with the Turtle school, but that he'd long since surpassed it. That's why him beating Tao, the man he once idolized is pretty significant.

I mean, if you like Chiaotzu (in before about a million jokes about how worthless Chiaotzu is) then him getting a smidge of development would have been great, but as it is, I think Tao works.

Also, despite this, for everyone who says I don't want that because I don't like or care for Chiaotzu, just remember, not liking something or caring about a character doesn't mean anything done with them is automatically bad.

And I say this.....as someone who feels anything done with Naruto is automatically bad.

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LOLypop1224 ...what am I even DOING here? Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
...what am I even DOING here?
#44502: Oct 4th 2016 at 2:48:25 PM

The issue is if Chiaotzu was in the top 8, they'd need to sacrifice one of the main cast. I guess either Yamcha or Krillin, and both of their fights were crucial to showing us the powers of Piccolo and Kami before the two of them faced each other. And then Piccolo beats him to show Goku is the only one who can deal with him. I don't know how you'd deal with that without those fights.

And as for the Saiyan Saga stuff, Mistare Fusion gave this amazing headcanon over why Gohan spends the early part of the Saiyan fight cowering away and then, once he gets involved, he immediately gets over his fear even before Piccolo's death. Plus, a whole thing about the 3-act structure and why the fight with the Saiyans doesn't drag like other fights in the series do. And why it worked to have Goku learn all his techniques off-screen. Basically, he does a lot of defending, and I think his arguments are solid.

The *Legendary* Super Saiyan is motivated by a crying infant! He is a literal giant f***ing baby!
IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#44503: Oct 4th 2016 at 2:55:46 PM

You don't need headcanon to figure out why Gohan spends the Saiyan Saga shifting between cowering and berserker raging.

Before Piccolo's death, he was a scared shitless 5 years old kid. After Piccolo's death, he was running on pure adrenaline. Gohan has proven that Adrenaline makes him forget he's a little kid.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
LOLypop1224 ...what am I even DOING here? Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
...what am I even DOING here?
#44504: Oct 4th 2016 at 3:13:45 PM

The issue is that he takes on Nappa and then has no issue with trying to hold him off before Piccolo's death. Basically, the video was saying that Gohan didn't want to join the fight because he didn't want to become a target and get hurt. And then once he actually does try and Nappa does actually manage to hurt him, Gohan realises "Actually, this isn't as bad as I thought it'd be" and starts fighting for real. It was a fear of the unknown situation.

It's basically just a headcanon, but I really like the idea.

The *Legendary* Super Saiyan is motivated by a crying infant! He is a literal giant f***ing baby!
IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#44505: Oct 4th 2016 at 3:17:36 PM

Thing is, it's still wrong - Gohan only fights when the Adrenaline takes over. Otherwise, he's paralyzed in fear.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#44506: Oct 4th 2016 at 3:19:25 PM

[up][up][up][up]Wait, what? Why would you need to remove any of them or any of their fights? I'm talking about replacing Cyborg Taopaipai with Chiaotzu, not anyone else.

edited 4th Oct '16 3:19:45 PM by PushoverMediaCritic

LOLypop1224 ...what am I even DOING here? Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
...what am I even DOING here?
#44507: Oct 4th 2016 at 3:24:47 PM

[up]Ah.

I'd miss Tenshinhan's character development, though. It's basically the only time a villain-turned-hero who actually faces his past. Karma Houdini is pretty big in this series.

The *Legendary* Super Saiyan is motivated by a crying infant! He is a literal giant f***ing baby!
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#44508: Oct 4th 2016 at 3:31:24 PM

Except Tenshinhan really doesn't get much character development in that fight, and what little he does get is just retreading old ground from the 22nd Tenkaichi Budokai. On the other hand, a heated and genuine battle for victory between Tenshinhan and Chiaotzu is ripe for character development potential, on both sides, and lord knows Chiaotzu needs it.

edited 4th Oct '16 3:32:28 PM by PushoverMediaCritic

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#44509: Oct 4th 2016 at 3:34:48 PM

[up][up]

That is true.

The anime also had Tien meeting a dude he'd injured previously while helping Roshi search for the Dragonballs.

I mean, Vegeta kinda had the thing with accidentally releasing Majin Buu, but that's more about his present actions then any past discretion.

Tien literally faced his past.....in the anime. I'm guessing that didn't happen in the manga.

edited 4th Oct '16 3:34:58 PM by HandsomeRob

One Strip! One Strip!
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#44510: Oct 4th 2016 at 3:34:55 PM

I just watched the fight. It was a good moment for him but I agree with Pushover in how he didn't actually grow from it. It was basically about how much he already grew.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#44511: Oct 4th 2016 at 3:36:32 PM

Well, what can you do?

Chiaotzu, like many characters, was probably just there to fill some pages, and had no purpose beyond that.

The only way he'll get any development is if Toriyama decides to care enough, and who knows if that will happen at all.

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Eriorguez Since: Jun, 2009
#44512: Oct 4th 2016 at 7:30:43 PM

Chiaotzu was there so Krillin had an opponent and Tien had somebody to care for. He is very akin to Puar.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#44513: Oct 5th 2016 at 6:38:20 AM

Exactly. He served his role well in the 22nd Budokai, he wasn't really needed after that. And that's okay.

I wouldn't call him a worthless character or underused because of that. Even after his main role was finished, his deaths add to the atmosphere of the Daimao and Saiyan arcs, and then he's written out of the series.

To make it more final, I would have just had Chaozu stay dead after the Namek arc, with Tenshinhan. The two of them staying in the afterlife, continuing their training in peace sounds like the perfect end for both of them - they only really want to be around each other, and it's the perfect environment for them to reach their best.

As for Chaozu beating Tao and fighting Tenshinhan, no, I do not think it would make the story better. I do think the fight with Tao is pretty important - it's true that it does not develop his character further or impact on him very much. But the very point of that fight is that he's already developed past that point, and the fight gives a nice close to his character arc. It's not often that Dragon Ball redemption actually shows the characters renounce their former lifestyle, so that is also a nice touch.

The battle isn't a very important one, but it still adds more than Ten vs Chaozu would, and in less screen-time. Which is important when you've got seven tournament fights to deal with in rapid succession, having the first round's fights be quicker and less important goes a long way for having enjoyable pacing.

Also, despite this, for everyone who says I don't want that because I don't like or care for Chiaotzu, just remember, not liking something or caring about a character doesn't mean anything done with them is automatically bad.

By the same token, liking a character doesn't mean everything done with them is good. Trying to put everyone in the spotlight is a great way to bog down the story and murder the pacing.

So yeah, it's perfectly valid for those who take the stance that they wouldn't want that change on the grounds that they don't think Chaozu's worth it - because the time spent on Chaozu doesn't come out of nowhere.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#44514: Oct 5th 2016 at 7:26:22 AM

Touché. I can see that point.

I agree with how his two deaths worked. I do wish he could do more then just die to inspire people though.

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randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#44515: Oct 5th 2016 at 11:35:39 AM

He just dies, doesn't really inspire anyone...

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
Shlugo_the_great King of Burgers from Far Far Away (On A Trope Odyssey) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
King of Burgers
#44516: Oct 5th 2016 at 11:45:50 AM

Well, he inspired Tien to... also die.

Okay, so his death didn't really accomplish anything good.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#44518: Oct 5th 2016 at 2:23:36 PM

[up][up]Your mileage may vary.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#44519: Oct 5th 2016 at 2:26:29 PM

[up]

No. He's right. Chiaoutzu's deaths accomplished Jack and all considering that both times, Tien failed to make them mean anything.

He failed to seal Daimou away (though that was because Drum kept getting in the way), and he only succeeded in dying when he tried stop Nappa, thereby making all chiaoutzu's efforts pointless by default.

One Strip! One Strip!
IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#44520: Oct 5th 2016 at 2:31:09 PM

I disagree. Chiaotzu's death inspired a murderer to sacrifice his life for the greater good.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
Shlugo_the_great King of Burgers from Far Far Away (On A Trope Odyssey) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
King of Burgers
#44521: Oct 5th 2016 at 2:34:38 PM

Did Tien ever actually killed anyone? He trained to be an assassin, but I think he changed his ways before that.

Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#44522: Oct 5th 2016 at 2:55:29 PM

As far as we know, Ten never killed anyone.

Also, Ten never even tried to use the Mafuuba on Daimaou in the manga because the rice cooker was broken from all the training he did.

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HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#44523: Oct 5th 2016 at 3:18:39 PM

Wow.

That's actually worse then in the anime. At least there, he got a chance to try.

Toriyama sure loves hammering home no-one but Goku can win sometimes doesn't he?

I mean, yeah, Tien couldn't be allowed to succeed, but for him to be foiled by something like that?

He probably should have bought some spares now that I think about it.

One Strip! One Strip!
LLSmoothJ (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#44524: Oct 5th 2016 at 4:17:24 PM

*reads current discussion* I'm just gonna leave this spoiler here...

https://twitter.com/Herms98

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#44525: Oct 5th 2016 at 4:19:31 PM

Well I guess that's a way to deal with Future Zamasu.


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