I thought you would've mentioned Videl or something, but ok.
There are many examples, but they just aren't related.
edited 27th Sep '16 5:01:10 AM by randomness4
Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.Broly vs Black
Yeah, the Broly fanboys are terrible, Koyama included, but the Hype Backlash has become equally annoying as it has lead to an echo chamber of Broly bashing. There are definitely some elements of his concept that are cliched as fuck (he's what a super saiyan SHOULD be, dammit!) but there's also some neat things that gets overlooked - like how he takes a lot of inspiration from Sun Wukong, giving him a thematic connection to Goku, or how he can easily represent the Saiyan ideal of the Super Saiyan, while being horrifying to the Saiyans in reality.
And Black really is not much better. He's equally as OC DONUT STEAL as Broly is - even more so - and I'd argue that while Super gives him more interesting character, his concept isn't interesting as Broly's could have been.
The very idea of Black's arc - someone at Toei giving the Toriyama the idea "Hey! Bring future Trunks back, and also make an evil Goku!" - is just hilariously fanfic. Not all of that can be pinned on Black, granted, but he's definitely the bigger part of that.
It sure is nice, being able to sit back and recognize that everyone but me is just shit
edited 27th Sep '16 5:21:36 AM by Saiga
You can't really say that Goku Black isn't an interest concept because you don't even know what he is. All you have is, 'he an evil Goku', who thinks he's doing good since mortals are bad. Why and how does he thinks this way, and is he really Goku or just someone using his body? Basically, Toriyama made an idea as cliche and simple as 'evil' Goku and turned it into an interesting story and mystery.
Broly, while the concept of creating a 'true' legendary Super Saiyan with some Monkey King elements are interesting, Broly as a character isn't. If fact, I am certain most of the themes you named weren't really considered when writing Broly and even if they were, you can have good ideas, but it doesn't mean crap if it isn't done well, just look at Dragon Ball GT.
While, Future Trunks' returning and an 'evil' Goku are cliche within the fandom, the way it has been handle has been well-recieved in what many considered one of the best arcs in the franchise and Goku Black along with Zamasu are considered some of the best villains.
Which is why I always believe that executions > original ideas.
As for Beerus being scary, he isn't supposed to look scary. This is Toriyama's thing. Who looks scary, Vegeta or Nappa? What was scary, Frieza's second or third form, or his final form? The most powerful being at the end of Z was a Blob Monster shaped like bubblegum, and even in Dragon Ball the most feared assassin in the world wore a pink 'Kill You' gi and wore a ponytail. Toriyama never created villains to be bigger and scary. That was mostly in the movies with people like Broly, Bojack, and Cooler's fifth form.
Its all in the execution baby; both Broly and Black are pretty fanfic tier concepts but Tropes Are Tools and they both show what happens when they're handled very differently.
A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.Neither Nappa or Veggie are scary...example fail.
Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice."Evil Goku" IS the concept. Toriyama can do more with it, and he clearly is, but that is what Black was originally pitched as.
And it's still a fanfiction cliche, in addition to generally being a fiction cliche. Because fanfiction tends to use it a lot more.
Edit: I am fairly sure those themes were considered for movie 8. The fact that Broly and Goku draw from the same inspiration is probably why they were made paralells, and the restraining headband subplot is straight out of Wukong's legend.
I also think the fact that both Vegeta and King Vegeta wanted nothing to do with Broly shows a good example of the "true" Saiyans being horrified by the paragon of their ideals.
edit: GT was bad ideas meets bad execution, for the most part.
And I don't really care if a lot of people praise the Black arc so highly. Amendum ad Populum or however that's spelled. It is certainly more interesting than what else Super has delivered so far, but the rest of Super has entertainment value on par with falling down the stairs.
edited 27th Sep '16 6:35:32 AM by Saiga
We don't know what the original pitch was since all we had was a name and people thought it might have been Bardock, Turles, or an actual 'black' Goku. Even within the show, he isn't treated like an evil Goku. Just an entity who looks like him.
Evil versions of good characters predates Fan Fictions. Doesn't matter who uses them more. Especially when almost everything in fiction uses it or an Evil Counterpart.
The similarities between Broly and Goku are so paper thinned and underused that they can be removed from the story and nothing will change. Broly hates Goku because he cried. That's what all those themes you named amounted to.
edited 27th Sep '16 6:38:46 AM by Ramona122003
People guessing Bardock, Tullece or Blackface don't count, that's dumb.
It's very obvious what the original pitch was, because [Character] Black means exactly one thing in Japan. Whether it is actually the same base person as the hero doesn't matter next to the imagery of a dark version of the hero.
Are we seriously trying to argue which Evil Counterpart was more well received....
A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.Yeah, Saiga, outside of a couple animation missteps and some awkward plotting in places, Super has been a slam-dunk right from the start. The Beerus arc did some things worse than Battle of Gods, but it did almost an equivalent number of things better, same with Resurrection 'F' and its respective arc.
The U6/U7 tournament is widely regarded as the best arc in Super up to that point, as well as a solid arc for the series as a whole, and the Black/Zamasu arc is considered one of the best arcs in the entire franchise.
Additionally, Super has some of the best-written filler episodes ever, which are frequently mentioned as the episodes people are excited for just because of how good and heart-warming they are.
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Wait, there are people who consider this saga one of the better arcs in the franchise?
Lol, this sludge doesn't even hold a candle to the Saiyan or Namek arcs.
We have two underwhelming villains, and a Future Trunks return. Hooray.
It doesn't help that all tension is voided out by Whis and Beerus still being massively stronger than the other villains.
Why even introduce time reversal? Like, why?
edited 27th Sep '16 7:02:27 AM by hardcorefakes
There's no reason to be surprised by that...
People like things more than you.
Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.

Wrong, SSJ 3 Goku gets an iris too. Though I don't recall Gotenks getting an iris out of transforming, so that's weird.
himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari