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VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#43401: Aug 31st 2016 at 8:10:38 AM

No, the muscles made the fighters slower. It's why Future Trunks couldn't hit Perfect Cell, and consequently why Perfect Cell couldn't hit Gohan when he tried.

Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#43402: Aug 31st 2016 at 8:22:14 AM

Point still being that the muscles let them do something against opponents they wouldn't have harmed otherwise, and that even though these methods failed, muscular appearances are not uncommon. Muscles are not meaningless in Dragonball, making your muscles freakishly huge is.

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VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#43403: Aug 31st 2016 at 8:25:08 AM

Point still being that the muscles let them do something against opponents they wouldn't have harmed otherwise

No they don't. That's why Muscles Are Meaningless, no one that's tried bulking up ever succeeded in defeating a plot relevant foe.

edited 31st Aug '16 8:27:02 AM by VeryMelon

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#43404: Aug 31st 2016 at 8:27:19 AM

Also, Toriyama has been moving away from the Saiyans being monkeys idea since the end of the Frieza Saga. Toriyama even went as far as to say that Saiyans' tails are useless, Goten and Trunks are so strong because they're tailless hybrids, and the Saiyans in U6 evolved past the need for them. So the whole monkey-man idea was a long abandon idea from the original creator.

I don't think he should have done this. I think there was still a lot of potential with the tails personally, and I think Toriyama made a mistake tossing them out.

Hell, while I do hate most everything in GT, I think that going back to the tail concept was good. As others have pointed out, it makes more sense then busting out a new legend that even Vegeta doesn't know about.

Now, this doesn't mean that the Super Saiyan God legend being lost makes no sense: something that old that happened on their old planet is something that's easily forgotten, but instead of making up completely new shit, he could have used what he already had by finding a way to reintegrate the tails.

My guess is that after Toei already went that route with GT, he just decided to do something different, which has precedent with the Goleta / Vegito situation (he created the latter because Toei already did the former in the fusion reborn movie).

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BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#43405: Aug 31st 2016 at 8:31:59 AM

I like the concept behind Super Saiyan 4 but I think its too far removed from the other forms of Super Saiyan tbh.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#43406: Aug 31st 2016 at 8:35:02 AM

Agreed.

It does kinda work since it's a combination of Oozaru and Super Saiyan but it leans a bit too much towards the former. I think they needed to acknowledge the other part of the equation as well.

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Ramona122003 Since: Jan, 2001
#43407: Aug 31st 2016 at 8:43:12 AM

@ Soble.

First, we don't know how long Super Saiyan God last. You literally just made up that five minute line.

Also, that isn't what an Ass Pull is. Please read the trope. Ass Pull is when something comes out of nowhere with no foreshadow or warning. The entirety of Battle of Gods was about Beerus looking for a Super Saiyan God to fight. So, how is Super Saiyan God an Ass Pull? You can call the transformation unremarkable, but it isn't an Ass Pull. Besides, Super Saiyan 4 is hardly better since it was never suggested until Old Kai that going into a Golden Great Ape turns you into a 'true' Super Saiyan. And Super Saiyan 4 doesn't even follow the lines of the regular Super Saiyans. Super Saiyan 1 and 2 are achieved by anger. Super Saiyan 3 by training. Super Saiyan 4 is achieved by turning into a giant monkey and then shrinking down to human size. Super Saiyan 4 is nothing like any of the other Super Saiyan forms before it.

In Minus, we know that there are good Saiyans, but you need at least six to become a god and they have to know about the ritual. There is no evident that they knew how to achieved Super Saiyan God and we never seen six righteous Saiyans in one place. In fact, there are only two 'good' Saiyans that we know of, Gine and Tarble. Also, what do you mean even Gohan? Gohan is probably the most righteous person the series and Vegeta is very tame compared to the average Saiyan who is most likely like Raditz and Nappa.

edited 31st Aug '16 8:46:50 AM by Ramona122003

Eriorguez Since: Jun, 2009
#43408: Aug 31st 2016 at 9:17:47 AM

It lasted 5 minutes in the movie.

Super Saiyan 4 would work better if it had a different name. And worked differently than just powering up to the form once unlocked. Again, more Oozaru elements would have made it more unique.

As for Super Saiyan Blue, well, somebody with awesome ki control understanding and repurpossing something ki-related? Why not?

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#43409: Aug 31st 2016 at 9:19:35 AM

Vegeta used to be pretty awful.

He didn't care that his people were wiped out, left Raditz to die because he was weak, and killed Nappa himself once he was no longer useful.

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Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#43410: Aug 31st 2016 at 10:04:01 AM

I'm pretty sure Super Saiyan 4 is only called that out of convenience, and that the form itself is more of an evolution than a transformation.

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Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#43411: Aug 31st 2016 at 10:56:43 AM

No they don't. That's why Muscles Are Meaningless, no one that's tried bulking up ever succeeded in defeating a plot relevant foe.

That doesn't sound like the definition of the trope. Muscles Are Meaningless = "less muscle, more strength."

I repeat: muscles are not meaningless in Dragonball; making your muscles freakishly huge is. Whenever a character in Dragonball gains a stronger form their muscle mass/tone increases. Several villains become more effective/deadly as their muscle mass increases. Cooler, Janemba, Cell, Freeza, Vegeta's Giant Ape form, Buu, Broly, Garlic Jr.

Cell wasn't physically stronger than Trunks, he was faster.

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Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#43412: Aug 31st 2016 at 11:01:11 AM

Cell wasn't physically stronger than Trunks, he was faster.

We don't know that for certain. It's just a common fan theory that Grade III made Trunks as strong as Cell/Super Saiyan 2.

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LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#43413: Aug 31st 2016 at 11:06:15 AM

I feel like Cell stomped that theory in the bud when he showed he could easily do what Trunks did, just to hammer in just how little a chance he really stood.

Trunks was never stronger than Cell (or Vegeta, for that matter) in any meaningful way.

edited 31st Aug '16 11:07:23 AM by LSBK

LordVatek Not really a lord of anything Since: Sep, 2014
Not really a lord of anything
#43414: Aug 31st 2016 at 11:06:59 AM

Super Saiyan 4 not looking like previous forms was one of the things I really liked about it. It would have been so easy to just style the hair differently (looking at you Super Saiyan 3) but it feels like they actually tried to give it its own identity.

And no, Blue + Kaioken is not its own transformation but it is a severe power increase brought about in an effort to beat an opponent that was previously unstoppable. It ticks all of the boxes of a new transformation without actually being one.

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VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#43415: Aug 31st 2016 at 11:21:28 AM

Okay, but any use of Kaioken will do that to a transformation. Mind you I don't even like Blue Kaioken, I just think your argument makes little sense.

LordVatek Not really a lord of anything Since: Sep, 2014
Not really a lord of anything
#43416: Aug 31st 2016 at 11:37:29 AM

My point is that there was never a point where Blue (by itself) had an even match before getting Worfed while most of the other super forms had one. It's a silly issue I know but one of the things I've always disliked about this series is how it responds to powerful villains by just introducing a new technique or form and having that be overpowered until the next problem arises and it's looking like this is what's happening right now in Super (I see no way for Goku win out without resorting to Kaioken which is unlikely if its absence in the manga is any indication, a previously unseen technique, calling Zen-O, or fusing). I realize this complaint holds no weight in the manga.

I have this same problem with Super Saiyan 3.

edited 31st Aug '16 11:38:02 AM by LordVatek

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HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#43417: Aug 31st 2016 at 11:41:48 AM

I have noticed the tendency to introduce concepts that ultimately prove useless, especially in Z.

The Spirit bomb failed 2 out of three times it was used.

Krillin's Kienzan has never worked.

The Kaioken was useless after Super Saiyan...

Ok. I was sure there were more examples, but now I can't seem to remember. Someone else is gonna have to pick this up.

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randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#43418: Aug 31st 2016 at 11:48:54 AM

And everything else was useless to the fusion until it wasn't necessary anymore.

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BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#43419: Aug 31st 2016 at 12:46:39 PM

[up][up][up] OK fine, but Super Saiyan 4 isn't really any different. When it first appears, it overpowers the opponent before the opponent uses his own transformation to even the playing field. Then afterward, Super Saiyan 4 isn't any more effective than the standard Super Saiyan form afterward with the exception being SSJ 4 Gogeta.

SSJ 4 Vegeta was just Fusion fodder for the most part and didn't contribute a whole lot afterward. So I don't understand your notion that SSJ 4 is somehow more meaningful than God or Blue.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
LordVatek Not really a lord of anything Since: Sep, 2014
Not really a lord of anything
#43420: Aug 31st 2016 at 1:03:33 PM

I guess it's more of a fear of what might happen. Blue is losing more and more often and assuming that Super keeps going, there's a high chance that a new transformation will move in and replace it and that never happened with 4. If they can keep Blue relevant then I'll have no complaints, but that's looking less and less likely.

edited 31st Aug '16 1:06:26 PM by LordVatek

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BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#43421: Aug 31st 2016 at 1:10:44 PM

It'd be really boring and anitclimactic if Super Saiyan Blue was just an "I win" button that all villains lost to, so I don't mind that it's not portrayed as being the ultimate trump card. Its not like its lost a whole lot. Vegeta losing is pretty standard at this point and Goku's gotten a lot of mileage out of it.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Ramona122003 Since: Jan, 2001
#43422: Aug 31st 2016 at 1:13:26 PM

Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan hasn't been losing more and more. It only lost to two opponents, Hit and Black. I still don't see the Kaio-Ken with Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan as a new transformation.

For the record, using the movie to show how long Super Saiyan God last isn't good. Time doesn't work like that in Dragon Ball.

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#43423: Aug 31st 2016 at 1:21:20 PM

So Last Season is a staple of the demographic. I do think Blue replacing Red after 1 film is silly but other than that I don't really care.

LordVatek Not really a lord of anything Since: Sep, 2014
Not really a lord of anything
#43424: Aug 31st 2016 at 1:27:41 PM

It doesn't have to be trump card but as it stands, Blue can't even touch Black and assuming the show doesn't violate the Sorting Algorithm of Evil, I doubt things will get much better for it. The show isn't in the habit of having transformations get better once they get beaten (with a few exceptions).

Anyways, I'm not willing to keep this up anymore especially since I could end up being totally wrong.

edited 31st Aug '16 1:30:39 PM by LordVatek

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Rinsankajugin Since: Feb, 2012
#43425: Aug 31st 2016 at 1:34:54 PM

I just wanted to talk about cool calendar art, I dunno how or why this argument blew up.


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