So what was once a case of epic overkill became just enough kill.
Let the joy of love give you an answer! Check out my book!I definitely agree with Indirect Active Transport here. It's probably why Super made me actually start hating Vegeta's character. There's nothing inherently bad about Vegeta, but the way people think the series is defined by the Goku/Vegeta relationship have either never seen Dragon Ball or they just aren't looking at the series properly. Like, Chris Sabat and Sean Schemmel were saying stuff like that! (I heard them at a convention about a week ago.) And sure, they're just the American voice actors, not the Word of God, but I wonder if even Toriyama has started to think it...
It's just the least interesting aspect of the series to me, but it's what Super and part of GT have kept bringing up. I just feel like it's a bit reductive.
edited 25th Jun '16 1:46:30 AM by LOLypop1224
The *Legendary* Super Saiyan is motivated by a crying infant! He is a literal giant f***ing baby!I feel like the series has been stuck in the same status quo since the end of manga, which is why Goku and Vegeta are always the focus.
However I don't think people are wrong in saying the series is defined by their relationship because it does become a huge part of the series from Vegeta's introduction and the final arc of the series devotes a lot of time to that relationship. It's the kind of thing that will stick in people's minds more than the pre-Saiyan arc portion of the manga which doesn't get referenced a hell of a lot.
Anyway, Toriyama doesn't hate Vegeta, obviously, but he did end up using him longer than he originally intended due to fan demand. The rumor is that Goku is the one fans made him keep around but Toriyama himself actually drew a gag manga where Vegeta mocks him for being too popular to kill off and creating Freeza to serve that purpose instead.
But speaking of Toriyama and interviews, he probably never should have said that Majin Buu is basically the Sun Wukong of Dragon Ball. Okay, he never said that outright but Son Goku(u), despite what the first volume would have you believe, is not "the monkey king". He never lead any armies, he never fought any gods or immortals, he has no restraining bolt, he's tough but not immortal. He has some of Wukong's abilities but only one transformation as opposed to 70+ and cannot even control it.
In fact we later learn, somewhat appropriately, that he was named after the fact he "fell from the sky" and the fact Son Goku(u) happens to have the same Kanji as Sun Wukong is actually coincidental. He's really an alien named Kakarot who has just as much in common with Superman and Sarah Conner.
But there is something that's been here since time immemorial, steadily absorbing, taking shape from unwitting human influence, that goes on a destructive rampage against the gods, that does gain a restraining bolt of sorts, that is damn near immortal, that can freely transform its body, even create clones of it, even destroy its enemies by forcing itself down their throats: Majin Buu. In hindsight it should have been obvious but we all took "created by Bibidi" at face value. What else were we supposed to do?
But no, it turns out Goku is The Black Wind Demon to Majin Buu's Monkey King in this twisted parody. In fact, given Majin Buu is defeated by teamwork you could compare the protagonists to the kings of Lion Camel Cave, The Rhino brothers or given this is Monkey King before his redemption, the heavenly kings.
Before you would have always had outliers like me who wanted to see Buu used in the same way there are those who want to see more Yamucha/Tien but now you went and not only drastically changed our perception of a character but also have us wonder when/if this will ever become relevant in the story itself and disappointed the longer it goes on unaddressed. So unlike the public domain Wukong Buu was summoned by a wizard to attack heaven rather than in a fit for not being invited to a banquet but the point remains he existed long before Bibidi got involved. So did he lead armies at some point? Did he have lots of demonic/rakshasa/majjin friends? Is their some old Taoist who taught Buu how to fight/use Ki/whatever?
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I mean, it kinda is though? A significant portion of Vegeta's character is his dynamic with Goku, and the final arc in particular focuses on that. And, in America at the very least, they're by far the most notable characters due to Dragon Ball Z airing first.
I mean, you can hate Vegeta for his popularity all you want, but you can't really deny his influence over the franchise is almost as much as Goku's.
Keyword is "rumor" son, as in nothing confirmed. In fact, I'm hard pressed to think Toriyama ever hated Vegeta and it was just fan conjecture that his fanbase came up with to complain why their favorite character was constantly upstaged. Given how Vegeta fans generally act even today, I'm led to believe that's the case.
edited 25th Jun '16 5:55:46 AM by BlackYakuzu94
A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.The thing I don't like about Vegeta in Super is that it goes and undoes a big portion of his character development for nothing more than fanservice. Vegeta character arc in Z was in big part about finally letting go of his pride and accepting that Goku is better than him, which he did at the end of Buu saga and seemed at peace with it. Then comes Super and right from the start (literally the second episode) throws it all out and have Vegeta go back to his old "I must surpass Kakaroto!" mindset.
I thought it was agreed that it somewhat made sense (and that at least now, he's doing it from a Goku is better, but I don't have to be second best rather than his original I already am better, and everything else is bullshit! angle that led to him doing really stupid things).
I re-call someone (likely Unnoun) posting something about it.
One Strip! One Strip!While Vegeta has seemingly regressed from giving Goku a thumbs-up and actually showing respect for him, there's a part in Resurrection F where Freeza stupidly believes Vegeta's willing to execute Goku for him. Vegeta responds
: "Thanks for the offer, but I can't. As annoying as this bastard can be, its our rivalry that keeps pushing me to get stronger. I can't afford to kill him."
I don't know if the Super version of the fight kept that line, but still. Maybe it's like with Beerus and they've made Vegeta more of a dick.
Vegeta probably wouldn't have agreed to train in the chamber the first time if not for getting repeatedly trounced by the bad guys, so training with Goku of his own free will is significant progress. So I don't see much reduction in character development - they're not going out for scones and BS'ing about sports, but he's not actively threatening Goku anymore.
edited 25th Jun '16 6:34:47 AM by Soble
I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!I don't really agree that Super undoes anything Vegeta went through in Z; if that was the case, he wouldn't even care about his family and just focus on beating Goku, which he doesn't.
He even said in said second episode that he accepts that Goku is indeed better than him, but once he found out Goku was still training despite that, Vegeta decided there's no reason he needs to stop training either and that even if Goku is better than him, he doesn't just have to sit down and hang up his boots.
I think there's a clear difference of being single mildly obsessed with surpassing someone because of your fragile ego(Vegeta during Z) and simply wanting to better yourself and not accept your own limitations. (Vegeta in Super).
EDIT: Admittedly, I do agree it keeps the status quo almost the exact same as it was in Z, but not in a way that ignores the events of Z itself.
edited 25th Jun '16 6:38:57 AM by BlackYakuzu94
A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.Not really, it's just mental gymnastics trying to justify how Vegeta doing what he always done is somehow different.
He might be nicer about it now, but hiss single minded obsession with surpassing Goku is as strong as ever.
I mean seriously, one episode had him standing on a rock in the middle of nowhere brooding about how much he wants to be stronger than Goku, then on the next episode which specifically happens few days later he's still standing on the exact same rock brooding about how much he wants to be stronger than Goku.
Which means he either was standing there the whole time, or he has a designated rock that he comes to when he wants to brood.
...
Oh god, Vegeta has a designated brooding rock, doesn't he?
The motivation makes sense - Vegeta says to himself he accepts Goku as number one, but has changed his goal from proving he is better than Goku than genuinely becoming better than Goku. That's fine.
The problem is that he is doing so with just as much obsession as before, so it doesn't look any healthier. He's still acting like the same old Vegeta, getting huffy when Goku makes any improvements and acting like a total knob.
Frieza's race is capable of surviving intense injury, if you recall. I mean, he got cut into pieces, blasted by Goku, and then had a planet explode under him and was only slightly inconvenienced.
That's probably why Cell came back as Super Perfect. Frieza's genes let him survive near death, Piccolo's genes restored him, and his Saiyan genes boosted his power.
Imo, Super doesn't undo that.
The final bit in the manga is Vegeta saying he will surpass Goku at the end. The difference between Vegeta pre-"You're number 1, Kakarot" and Vegeta post-"You're number 1, Kakarot" is pre would never even acknowledge that Goku is stronger than him. He was in denial about it and the minute it hit him on Babidi's ship, he immediately jumped sides because he's the prince of all saiyans and should be the strongest by default. Post Vegeta acknowledges Goku's strength and it's a healthy rivalry that won't cause him to kill dozens of people.
"If you weren't so crazy I'd think you were insane."That's not true, he's actually less of an asshole now. Like when Goku pulled out the Super Kaio-Ken, he wasn't as mad about it as he would have been before the Buu Saga.
@Shlugo: You're pretty much dead wrong slick. Vegeta's motivation makes all the difference.
This is especially shown in interactions with Cabba. How he encouraged Cabba to surpass him, but also told him he wouldn't stop getting stronger either. Pre-Buu Saga Vegeta would have never said that, neither would early Buu Saga Vegeta for that matter.
So you're pretty much wrong in saying that it undid his character development, it obviously did not.
Your mistake is thinking that him accepting Goku is currently stronger means he would stop trying to surpass him.
And I already addressed that. The motivation changed - the behaviour hasn't. Him being healthier about it is really Informed Attribute because he isn't acting any different.
A Shlugo pointed out, he's still obsessing over it constantly and brooding on rocks. He is angered when Goku surpasses him.
His character development wasn't reversed, but it has been significantly downplayed so that he can still behave the same. Scenes of him brooding and getting bent out of shape over their rivalry vastly outnumber scenes like he has with Cabba.
Where it counts (his interaction with Goku) he's acting the same. He even does the same bullshit "help enemies because my ego" thing, with Frost.
edited 25th Jun '16 9:20:21 AM by Saiga
Except he is acting differently and the brooding is played for humor now.
Supassing Goku drives and motivates him, but he's not as obsessed by it.
There's a world of difference between motivation and obsession.
And as his talk with Cabba shows (which you keep ignoring), he understands that Goku won't stop getting stronger either.
The brooding isn't always played for humour. It's mostly played straight, and returned to repeatedly.
He is ABSOLUTELY obsessed by it because he won't fucking stop going on about it. The fact that he literally pops veins in anger over Goku getting stronger shows how obsessive he is. There is not a single shred of evidence to suggest that he is approaching his goal in a healthy fashion.
I wasn't ignoring it, I directly addressed that.
That's all of one scene and it's just outnumbered by all the examples of the writing staff going back to the old well of "classic Vegeta behaviour".
I'm gonna agree with Saiga and say the Character Development is downplayed to keep his dynamic with Goku intact.
Vegeta isn't as self righteous as before, and yea he actually has empathy now, but he still largely does not like Goku and gets frustrated when feels he's lagging behind, but I doubt he'd sell his soul of hinder the heroes to stroke his own ego.
Well aside from Frost, but he was actually able to back up his attitude in that case.
A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.

Granted, because he died so long ago, Freeza was in pieces when he was brought back.