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TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#39851: Jun 6th 2016 at 9:20:04 AM

I already suggested it could be Mai's kid, to no comment. But Unnoun does and she's a genius...you people...

Obviously, we like Unnoun better than you. CHOKE ON OUR PASSIVE AGGRESSION!!!

No, but seriously, it probably just got lost in the outrage. Some folks are livid about Mai and are quick to dismiss any of the multitude of explanations for her appearance because...well, because rage is an addictive drug, really.

...and then it sank into the swamp.

So they built a second one... and it sank into the swamp. So they built a third one... and it sank into the swamp. But the fourth! The fourth stayed up!

Third one caught fire, fell over, and then sank into the swamp.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#39852: Jun 6th 2016 at 11:58:56 AM

[up][up][up]You're saying Future Trunks was already taller than Blooma but the picture linked is from the end of the Saga...Saiyan Armor too.

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
wehrmacht belongs to the hurricane from the garden of everything Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
belongs to the hurricane
#39853: Jun 6th 2016 at 12:07:55 PM

Not to detract from the topic at hand but speaking of Future Trunks...what's the general consensus on the TV special? Good? Bad? Worth watching?

hardcorefakes coolest_guy from probably America Since: Oct, 2015 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
coolest_guy
#39854: Jun 6th 2016 at 12:30:27 PM

I think it's worth watching, although I prefer the abridged version more.

Rinsankajugin Since: Feb, 2012
Kesseleth Since: Apr, 2016
#39856: Jun 6th 2016 at 1:05:02 PM

I've been watching a good amount of DBZ lately, and I'm almost to the infamous Goku vs. Frieza fight I've heard so much about. Given I made it that far through the series, I clearly am enjoying it, but there's one thing that has confused me to no end-how exactly do the characters' powers work? As far as I can tell, each character has some form of innate energy which they draw upon in order to fight, but I can't tell exactly how it is used or what its limitations are. Honestly, it seems as though the characters' skills are really just whatever the story needs them to be, whether that be firing lasers, punching incredibly fast, or making some form of energy projectile. Out of all the abilities used, only some have defined names or applications (Kamehameha, Destructo Disc, Solar Flare, Dodon Ray, etc.), while others seem to have been made up on the spot and have no readily apparent rhyme or reason to them other than all somehow making a crater wherever they land.

Additionally, a few of the characters have some ability to "charge", which I have no understanding of whatsoever. It was noted that some characters can hide their power level, but apparently instead of simply appearing weaker, they actually BECOME weaker and need to make themselves stronger again, which makes one wonder why they can't just do that indefinitely, what limits there are, or (once again) how it actually works. I presume that the transformations that can be used by Zarbon, Frieza, Super Saiyans, and presumably others, naturally occur when some certain power ceiling is reached (for instance, if Goku hit 1 million power level he automatically becomes a Super Saiyan), allowing each character to maintain a weaker form until they do this charging thing, but this is mere speculation and once again I don't really know.

I can't help but feel as though there's a lot of lore and explanations for the use of this power and the charging ability, but the show has no explanation for it, at least thus far. What is the reasoning behind these things? Or, am I perhaps looking too closely at what really is just a kids' show (albeit a rather swear-heavy kids' show with lots of death and more blood than I expected when I began)?

edited 6th Jun '16 1:06:53 PM by Kesseleth

Zeromaeus Since: May, 2010
#39857: Jun 6th 2016 at 1:05:43 PM

I see there's no love for the Majin race in the upper tiers.

Rinsankajugin Since: Feb, 2012
#39858: Jun 6th 2016 at 1:14:20 PM

[up][up] Have ya watched the original 150 episodes of DB, I'm sure they explain how ki works in the earlier episodes. I think more is also explained in the Cell and Buu Sagas, especially when Gohan trains 2 other people.

[up] I do find that weird, but at least Optimus Prime won a tourney. tongue

edited 6th Jun '16 1:16:19 PM by Rinsankajugin

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#39859: Jun 6th 2016 at 1:20:59 PM

That post is basically Christmas come early for the Exposition Dragon.

The characters' powers come from a force known as ki, also known as qi, chi, prana, and a bunch of other names. Basically, it's energy generated by your life force. While other series don't tend to go as overboard with it as Dragon Ball does, the idea is basically that all living things generate this energy. Like the Force, if that makes sense. It plays into an idea popular in Japanese works regarding internal power overcoming external boundaries. In essence, the energy attacks are the embodiment of the character's internal strength manifested physically to act upon the world.

If you started the series at Z, that would probably be why you're confused. DBZ is actually the second part of the story, so many of the abilities introduced and built up in the first part - beam attacks like the Kamehameha, the flight technique Bukujutsu, Goku turning into the mighty Oozaru at the sight of a full moon, etc. etc. are considered to be well-established and requiring no further explanation at the time Raditz lands.

As charging goes, characters are basically storing up ki inside their body to increase their power temporarily. There's a default level of power that characters walk around with, an upper limit of power they can achieve by charging their ki, and a lower limit that they can temporarily reduce their power to through deliberate effort. The latter is specifically a technique that has to be learned, which is why Gohan can do it 'cause he was trained in it while Frieza's forces are completely incapable of it and many don't even realize it's a thing that's possible.

Storing up power is basically the same thing that they do with moves like the Kamehameha, where they concentrate their ki into a single point before releasing it in order to create an attack that is actually more powerful than the person firing it. Other moves like the Makankosappo or Special Beam Cannon and the Galick Gun function on similar principles.

As for the transformations, they don't all follow the same principles. Super Saiyan, for instance, has specific emotional criteria for unlocking it. It requires a minimum level of power but also a specific set of stimulus. Frieza's transformations, on the other hand, work in the opposite way; each of his forms act as a lock to reduce his power. When he transforms, he's releasing these locks and letting out more of his true power. His final form is his natural state.

edited 6th Jun '16 1:23:30 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Kesseleth Since: Apr, 2016
#39860: Jun 6th 2016 at 1:53:57 PM

I have seen the original Dragon Ball, actually. Though, perhaps due to me being ignorant, all I got from their explanation was, "Ki is a thing people have and you can do stuff with it!" and I didn't really understand how it worked past that point. Perhaps it's more generally understood in Japanese culture, sort of like how you can say "sorcerers use magic" in the US and everyone just gets it. In truth, I didn't find flight well explained either and I rather just went with it-it started as characters jumping really high, then a couple characters had psychic powers and could float, and suddenly everyone could fly somehow. I kinda just rolled with it, assuming that at some point you got strong enough that you could just do that in this world. I will say, though, that the moon transformation was actually one that I rather well understood-that was one of the aformentioned ones I was thinking of when I said somw powers had a defined name and function.

Thanks for your explanation, though. One thing I'm still unclear on, though-is each character, when they're using an ability, basically just calling upon their power to do whatever it is they want to do (assuming their power is such that they're capable of it, of course)? That would explain why there's a lack of consistency with the exact limitations of power-it can do anything you want as long as you have enough ki for it.

Also, is it correct that one's "natural" level of ki is dependant on body, with their maximum level dependent on soul (with both being able to be strengthened through training)? Goku discussed how both must be strong for one's full power to be released, and it would explain why Captain Ginyu couldn't adequately use Goku's body-his new body had more natural power but his soul was too weak to capitalize on it, whereas Goku had a strong enough soul to create a high level of natural power even with Ginyu's weaker body.

edited 6th Jun '16 1:56:07 PM by Kesseleth

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#39861: Jun 6th 2016 at 2:04:30 PM

It's accurate to say it's something that's just generally taken as a given in Japanese culture. There are many anime works where characters gain the ability to leap buildings, run faster than cars, punches planets in half, etc. just by training really hard to increase their inner strength. Where Western culture is all about external power provided by guns and tools and other implements, Japanese culture revolves around internal power with weapons like swords or guns being an extension of the warrior's essence - exactly as strong as the warrior is, no more and no less.

Most of the ki-based techniques are basically the characters releasing their power in different ways. Like, the standard is the Kamehameha but some characters like Goku or Krillin have practiced curving their ki so the beam twists and bends.

There are also some special abilities that aren't explained by ki at all, like Ginyu's Body Change which is basically never explained as anything more than a weird alien thing he does or Baba temporarily bringing the dead to the physical plane, which is magic.

Some filler segments of the anime overlook this with detrimental effects on continuity, but all souls are basically the same low-level strength. That's why Goku keeping his body in the afterlife was a big deal; all of a person's power is in their body. Your power dies with your body, but because Goku's corpse was patched up and gifted to him in the afterlife, he was able to retain his level and keep on training - which most dead people cannot.

The reason Ginyu couldn't use Goku's body to its full effect is twofold. The first reason is because he was unpracticed. Goku isn't just really super strong, he's a martial artist. Where someone like Vegeta is just strong because that's how he is, Goku gets a lot of his prowess from his ability to do more with less. Ginyu would be much better suited to Vegeta or Frieza's bodies than Goku's because they don't take any learning.

The other reason is kinda funny. Goku was using the Kaioken when he was clocked at 180,000, which is a x2 multiplier of his strength. His base power at that point in time, 90,000, is actually weaker than Ginyu's 120,000 so even if he did figure out how to use the body to its full effect, he'd still be trading down.

edited 6th Jun '16 2:08:17 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Rinsankajugin Since: Feb, 2012
#39862: Jun 6th 2016 at 2:12:49 PM

Dragon Ball is a modern example of Wuxia, which is the like the eastern equivalent of High Fantasy in the west.

So yeah, ki is a lot like magic, but it's also not the same.

Kesseleth Since: Apr, 2016
#39863: Jun 6th 2016 at 3:14:35 PM

You'd think with all this filler they'd use the opportunity to delve into these details a bit more. *shrug* Well, that makes a lot of sense, and also actually helps me understand more about the nature of the show, and anime in general actually-I'm so used to western-style stories that involve the collection of a Holy Macguffin in order to defeat the ultimate evil that I'm unfamiliar with the concept getting so strong just through hard work and the way a number of anime characters somehow just "get better" and beat an opponent that wiped the floor with them oftentimes confused me. It makes a lot more sense thinking about it in terms of a culturally accepted "internal power" that can be refined into a weapon of sorts through constant training, and continually strengthened indefinitely.

Perhaps I only didn't understand the way these powers worked due to personal ignorance, though-I watched though all of Dragon Ball and, while I generally understood the powers themselves (you can make a laser from your hands or fly), I didn't grasp their more intrinsic properties in terms of their origins and I can't help but feel that I should have. Your explanation helped a lot, though, so thanks!

Just as a last question-is the nature of this power delved into at all in later arcs? I know Toriyama didn't plan the series and its full plot out in the traditional sense, and many scenes felt based upon Rule of Cool to me-is it that the powers show up and then get explained later, or did I just miss the explanation somehow?

Lionheart0 Since: Oct, 2009 Relationship Status: I'm just a hunk-a, hunk-a burnin' love
#39864: Jun 6th 2016 at 3:18:07 PM

Well, Goten and Trunks still look 7 and 8 despite being at least in their preteen years :V Then again, saiyan genes. Like I said, Toriyama might've just said "fuck it, its my story and I do what I want" I doubt we're gonna get an explanation for this.

I still find that weird because by comparison, both Gohan and Future Trunks had relatively normal growth rates.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#39865: Jun 6th 2016 at 3:30:36 PM

No, they never really delve into the nature of them. The issue is made a bit more confusing by the Genki-Dama or Spirit Bomb, which draws a different kind of energy from all things both living and not, and by a set of villains introduced later who produce energy by artificial means that is noted as being different from ki and thus can't be sensed, but is never really explained what it is and how it's different.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#39866: Jun 6th 2016 at 3:36:48 PM

Maybe it's just pure life force or something.

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#39867: Jun 6th 2016 at 3:55:13 PM

Oh, something else to add.

Running out of ki does not typically kill a person, but it does greatly diminish their strength. Tien's Kikoho or Tri-Beam, however, feeds off his life force directly and converts it into power. This is actually what killed him during the fight with Nappa; Tien killed himself with the Kikoho by firing it when he didn't have enough life left in him to survive the drain.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#39868: Jun 6th 2016 at 4:07:01 PM

Because I didn't see it: Bukujutsu (flying) is specifically done by emitting Ki from the part of your body that happens to be facing the ground, pushing you into the air.

Rinsankajugin Since: Feb, 2012
#39869: Jun 6th 2016 at 4:15:55 PM

A better look at the next villain.

Black's outfit definitely looks like a Kai's outfit.

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#39870: Jun 6th 2016 at 4:17:27 PM

What if he's a version of a Kai who went rogue?

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
Rinsankajugin Since: Feb, 2012
#39871: Jun 6th 2016 at 4:20:57 PM

I really do think the Makai are coming...

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#39872: Jun 6th 2016 at 4:25:44 PM

[up][up]

I was thinking of the same possibility.

[up]

This could also work. The demons having their own Kais.

We'll know soon enough I suppose.

Anymore word on Future (hoping it's not) Mai?

One Strip! One Strip!
Rinsankajugin Since: Feb, 2012
#39873: Jun 6th 2016 at 4:33:18 PM

We already have Demigra, Putine and Gravy, but I'm not sure if they're canon enough. I speculate that Demon God Demigra is a Supreme Makai due to his green patora. I think that's the indicator of being Supreme, the patora earrings.

Accessories and stuff...

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#39874: Jun 6th 2016 at 4:35:01 PM

Ya know, for as much as we argue about this franchise so much, I still find myself noticing how excited we're still getting over this. It's kinda fun.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#39875: Jun 6th 2016 at 4:37:58 PM

Much like you just did, people seem to assume that liking or even loving a franchise means you can only ever say positive things about it.

If you're blind to its faults, then you don't really like it, you just made up in your head what you think it is and you like your image of what it is.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari

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