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randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#39726: Jun 4th 2016 at 10:01:10 PM

Having the foolishly foolish courage to repeatedly take on threats stronger than him makes him the Goku of the future...then he defeats Cell and protects the future "forever".

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#39727: Jun 4th 2016 at 10:11:09 PM

To be fair, Goku isn't that much of a Blood Knight when you get right to it; how many times did he come to the aid of people he had just met when he had the chance to? He helped out Turtle, Chi-Chi and the Ox King, Suno, hell, the entire reason he took down the Red Ribbon Army was so that he could get the Dragon Ball they had, just so that he could use them to bring Bora back to life for Upa's sake. Really, the Blood Knight thing only became really prominent during the Z portion of the series.

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#39728: Jun 4th 2016 at 10:16:13 PM

He also considered eating the turtle because he might be tasty.

It's true that his blood knight nature was something that became more pronounced as he was older, but it's still the biggest part of his personality and even his willingness to help others never made him a traditional hero.

Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#39729: Jun 4th 2016 at 10:24:25 PM

I think this quote from the character page makes the most sense:

According to Toriyama this holds true even for the original Japanese anime. He was dissatisfied by the 'righteous' hero-type portrayal the anime gave him. In the manga, Goku is supposed to be depicted as someone who doesn't fight for others, but fights for himself to get stronger. He wanted to depict someone who isn't a classic hero and can even be seen as not being a good person because of his selfish desire (a little bit of poison that sneaks through his character as Toriyama puts it). However, even going purely off the manga, this depiction of Goku is lost in translation since most of Goku's motives pertain to protecting or avenging his family and friends, and he does help people he barely knows when it didn't completely relate to fighting; like storming Muscle Tower to repay Suno for saving him from freezing to death and avenging Upa's father who was murdered by Tao before taking down the Red Ribbon Army, and getting the Dragon Balls to revive him. He wanted to fight the Saiyans not because they were powerful, but because they were going to murder everyone he knew and his need to protect everyone also kept him from giving up when Frieza overpowered him. He also didn't want to help fight Buu, despite having the power to do so, because he didn't want his friends to depend on him to save them, which if he was completely selfish he wouldn't care and fight Buu for the sake of having a good battle. It could be said that Toriyama's original intentions for Goku evolve into something slightly different as Character Development took over. Goku is a hero with a good heart, but he has selfish and personal motives that can override his better judgement.

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#39730: Jun 4th 2016 at 10:32:25 PM

Yanno, one of the problems of saying 'According to Toriyama', is that unless you give a link to it, you can say anything and not get believed.

I could just as easily say that according to Toriyama, Dragon Ball is a series about potatoes.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#39731: Jun 4th 2016 at 10:35:47 PM

Well it's mostly because the link didn't transfer when I copy/pasted it.

For the record, here's the interview.

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#39732: Jun 4th 2016 at 10:41:34 PM

This series is still about potatoes though.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#39733: Jun 4th 2016 at 10:57:02 PM

That's only partially correct.

Though I'd say it's more about all vegetables...not just potatoes.

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#39734: Jun 4th 2016 at 11:01:54 PM

That's not very accurate. Goku lets Vegeta go purely because he wants to fight him in the future. He attempts to do the same for Freeza, telling him to go train so he can become a better challenge. The part about him being not giving up against Freeza because he's motivated by protecting his friends is also from the anime, not the manga.

randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#39735: Jun 4th 2016 at 11:13:46 PM

[up]x4 I only just now realized what was happening.

Though...it's weird you were defending Goku not being a Blood Knight when I was accidentally referring to Trunks as one.

What I meant by calling Goku the Trunks of the future is that Goku will fight to defeat the current threat no matter how helpless it seems at first...then he comes back and wins.

edited 4th Jun '16 11:14:10 PM by randomness4

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#39736: Jun 4th 2016 at 11:16:24 PM

Zigzags in Dragon Ball Super: Overall, Goku comes across as less heroic and is closer to Toriyama's version of the character. That said, Goku is more heroic in the series when compared to the movies, Dragon Ball Z: Battle of Gods and Dragon Ball Z: Resurrection ‘F’, where Toriyama had more active involvement in the writing. In the Battle of God Saga, Goku wants to rush to Earth to stop Beerus from destroying the planet and only relents after King Kai points out that his involvement could destroy the Earth by making Beerus mad. In the movie, Goku willingly stays on King Kai's planet to train and reach Super Saiyan God. Goku is also happier with the results of becoming of Super Saiyan God (although he calls the power empty since it isn't his own) and fights mostly to protect the planet from Beerus (who is also more of a jerk since he attacks the planet directly to push Goku's power), while still having a good time. In the movie, Goku is unhappy with Super Saiyan God since it's a level he couldn't reach on his own and he fights Beerus more for himself until the end. In the Resurrection 'F' Saga, Goku hates Frieza a lot more and tells the tyrant that he feels nothing but contempt for him despite normally loving fighting strong opponents. He also berates Frieza for being so careless to come to Earth without mastering his golden form and only spares him because he sees him as too pathetic to kill. In the movie, Goku is happy that Frieza becomes so powerful in such a short amount of time, didn't really take the threat seriously, and spares Frieza so he can train his golden form and come back to fight him again. And when he's force to kill Frieza to keep him from destroying the Earth, he warns Vegeta to get out of the way and hesitates for a second since he might hit him, while in the movie, Goku fires his Kamehameha while Vegeta is still within range.

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
Ramona122003 Since: Jan, 2001
#39737: Jun 4th 2016 at 11:22:32 PM

Trunks is called a Badass because he heck Frieza to pieces. When you actually looked at him, he isn't really that impressive compared to the other hybrids Saiyans. He fought the androids for years, yet he was only around Namek Saga Goku's level (at least in the manga). He also got two years in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber, and still came out weaker than Goku and Gohan who did less than a year, and only 'surpass' Vegeta by using the crippling Ultra Super Saiyan form. On top of that, he less 'Badass' present counterpart is stronger than him at the same age during a time of peace. Not saying that I don't like Trunks, but I think the fandom overrates him and his Badass creed.

Also, Trunks running for help really isn't that much different than Gohan, especially if in the time between the Cell Games in this event he didn't become much stronger. We will see, but it's funny that slacker Gohan is still way ahead of him despite the fandom giving him endless crap for not training.

Also, six months may seem short, but Vegeta and Goku did very specific training. It was as easy as some seems to think, Goku and Vegeta should have reached god energy on their own since they trained for years non-stop.

And, Uub is severely underuse. To say that he brings nothing new is just unfair since no has done anything with him. He is reborn version of Kid Buu who has shown learning techniques from watching them and has the ability to grow at a fast rate. There is plenty that can be done with him, especially I can see him taking a more superhero route like Gohan.

Edit: Just wanted to say, he didn't spare Frieza so he can return to fight him. He spared Frieza because he saw letting him live with his pride shatter as a better punishment than killing him. Basically, Cruel Mercy. And even then, he gave Frieza energy because Frieza begged for his life when he wanted to leave him to die.

edited 4th Jun '16 11:33:14 PM by Ramona122003

randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#39738: Jun 4th 2016 at 11:26:23 PM

You're not only judging by his power...and feats.

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#39739: Jun 4th 2016 at 11:29:12 PM

We can't make much of a judgement on Trunks running to help in Super. I thought you were talking about doing so in the Android arc, which is where I think his decision was completely understandable.

I know he's not the ultimate badass - that's what makes him so compelling. But he has done a number of really impressive things, like getting over 50x stronger in three years with no-one to train him (going off the manga). Namek arc Goku is still an incredibly high level.

Anyway, it doesn't matter how special the training is - it's still possible for Gohan to do it. I'm not saying his independent training would produce the same result.

Besides, Whis' super-special-training is nothing but a narrative convenience anyway.

edited 4th Jun '16 11:29:55 PM by Saiga

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#39740: Jun 4th 2016 at 11:35:43 PM

I wonder how people would react if Gohan achieved Super Saiyan Blue somehow.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Ramona122003 Since: Jan, 2001
#39741: Jun 4th 2016 at 11:37:40 PM

That narration convenient is true for any story.

Yes, I was referring to Super's storyline where Trunks returns for help. According to some, Gohan is irresponsible for not getting stronger to protect the Earth. Depending on how the next episode plays out, the same can be said about Trunks if he's not much stronger compared to what he was during the Cell Games. It holds even more true for him since he is literally the last line of defense.

Gohan in theory can become stronger than Goku and Vegeta, but reaching god energy is not that easy. If it was, Goku and Vegeta would have done it years ago since they do nothing but trained. It says something that Whis made Goku and Vegeta stronger and a few months than they every did in a decade.

Edit: Also wanted to add that in the Saiyan Saga, Goku wanted to become stronger to fight the Saiyans and save his friends. When King Kai told him he was going to be a day late, he freaks out because everyone will be dead, not because he was afraid of missing a fight. Yeah, he did spare Vegeta, but before then he was doing everything in his power to kill the guy. Goku even acknowledges he was being selfish for asking Krillin to spare him.

edited 4th Jun '16 11:43:11 PM by Ramona122003

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#39742: Jun 4th 2016 at 11:41:44 PM

What I'm saying is that is not a good excuse because that only exists as a means for them to get stronger.

Also, we don't know how much time has passed in Trunks' timeline because it's an alternate timeline. In the Android arc, eight months passed there before he returned to the past, three years after his first trip. Furthermore, unlike Gohan, we have no idea what his limits are and he might not have been able to become stronger.

It's not that simple. The training they were doing was not going to lead them to God forms because they weren't aware of them and weren't aiming for them. But someone who does know, can teach them. The same could be taught to Gohan.

Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#39743: Jun 4th 2016 at 11:42:24 PM

...dude, the Frieza stuff was talking about the Resurrection F Saga and movie differences, not the original saga.

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#39744: Jun 4th 2016 at 11:44:23 PM

It wouldn't really matter how much time has passed...Trunks can only get stronger through self-training and that's just not as efficient.

He can master FP SSJ, but that's about it.

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
Ramona122003 Since: Jan, 2001
#39745: Jun 4th 2016 at 11:52:16 PM

According to sources, 17 years have past since Trunks defeated the androids. So, there really isn't an excuse for him not to be much stronger, unless he was too busy doing other things, like rebuilding the world. We also do have a clue of his limits. Present Trunks is stronger than him at the same age and he is considered a prodigy. He may no have the same upper limit as Gohan, but if Trunks is anything like his present counterpart, he has it within him to surpass his father if he trains. Honestly, Trunks should be at least a Super Saiyan 2 since he saw Gohan ascend and know that the level exists. I will be shocked if he couldn't do it.

Also, Vegeta was aware of Super Saiyan God after seeing Goku do it and trained. When Whis saw him again, he tells Vegeta that although he has gotten stronger he will never surpass Goku because the method he was using was right. Gohan can be taught and may learned even faster than Goku and Vegeta, but it take months of dedicated, constant, and hard training.

SSJ 3 Gojira, are you referring to me? I mentioned the original fight with Frieza because Saiga said that Goku spared Frieza to fight him again. In their first fight, that isn't true. He spares Frieza out of Cruel Mercy. He actually tells Frieza that he never wanted to see him again.

edited 4th Jun '16 11:53:45 PM by Ramona122003

Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#39746: Jun 4th 2016 at 11:52:53 PM

Oh, by the way, I just checked, and Copy-Vegeta is actually capable of using Super Saiyan Blue. So yes, Base Vegeta is stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks.

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#39747: Jun 4th 2016 at 11:52:54 PM

Also wanted to add that in the Saiyan Saga, Goku wanted to become stronger to fight the Saiyans and save his friends. When King Kai told him he was going to be a day late, he freaks out because everyone will be dead, not because he was afraid of missing a fight. Yeah, he did spare Vegeta, but before then he was doing everything in his power to kill the guy. Goku even acknowledges he was being selfish for asking Krillin to spare him.

I have already acknowledged Goku cares about his friends. He doesn't want them to die. But he does not put their safety before a good fight, and when he shows his desire to protect them it also goes hand-in-hand with fighting someone strong.

Edit: Just wanted to say, he didn't spare Frieza so he can return to fight him. He spared Frieza because he saw letting him live with his pride shatter as a better punishment than killing him. Basically, Cruel Mercy. And even then, he gave Frieza energy because Frieza begged for his life when he wanted to leave him to die.

No, he does tell Freeza (twice) to go train and come back stronger. Shattering his pride is definitely part of it, but he stopped when he decided the battle wouldn't be fun for him anymore.

And, Uub is severely underuse. To say that he brings nothing new is just unfair since no has done anything with him. He is reborn version of Kid Buu who has shown learning techniques from watching them and has the ability to grow at a fast rate. There is plenty that can be done with him, especially I can see him taking a more superhero route like Gohan.

It's completely fair. He doesn't have anything new from the characters he is a pastiche of, and Boo's ability to copy techniques is seriously underwhelming when several characters have already done that. Besides, that's Boo. Oob may be his reincarnation but he doesn't have his physiology so he's lost the most interesting part of Boo.

I think he has potential as another fighter in the cast. But I haven't seen a damn thing that makes him look like a good fit for the main character role.

[up] In the anime.

[up][up] We don't know present Trunks' limits either, or if he really is stronger than Future Trunks (that's pure speculation).

And Vegeta knew of Super Saiyan God. He couldn't reach that with his training. Guess what? He couldn't reach that in Whis' training other. Both Goku and Vegeta had to discover a new form through Whis' training.

Months of hard training is totally doable for Gohan because months are a miniscule unit of time.

edited 4th Jun '16 11:55:12 PM by Saiga

Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#39748: Jun 4th 2016 at 11:55:59 PM

[up] Which um, is the only medium that counts right now.

Also, Copy-Vegeta's hair in the form is a dark blue color or something; Goku's looks more teal or aquamarine or something.

edited 4th Jun '16 11:58:05 PM by Ssj3Gojira

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#39749: Jun 4th 2016 at 11:59:08 PM

That's not true at all. Regardless of how you personally feel, there is a manga and both anime and manga are just adaptations of Toriyama's script. And the following episodes are essentially filler!

So, I should have rephrased: it's not even that base Vegeta is that strong in the anime. He's that strong in some anime exclusive content which doesn't necessarily have bearing on the arcs that are adapted from Toriyama's script.

Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#39750: Jun 5th 2016 at 12:03:05 AM

Except, we don't know that it's not from Toriyama's script.

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!

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