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Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#39701: Jun 4th 2016 at 7:31:53 AM

Vegeta caught up pretty easily just by training. And Gohan's got greater dormant power than him.

Also, he has seen a concrete reason to train - Goku and Vegeta aren't always around. They barely made it in time in Resurrection F. They had to rely on Whis' favor to save the day.

Ikedatakeshi Baby dango from singapore Since: Nov, 2015 Relationship Status: Singularity
Baby dango
#39702: Jun 4th 2016 at 7:36:15 AM

Unlike Vegeta, Gohan has responsibilities. He can ignore them, but Gohan won't do that unless necessary. You mentioning Goku and Vegeta aren't around does remind me, weren't they training with Whis? Why are they are on Earth right now?

IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#39703: Jun 4th 2016 at 7:37:41 AM

Leaving the protection of Earth to either Goku or Vegeta is pretty damn irresponsible no matter how you look at it.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#39704: Jun 4th 2016 at 8:09:08 AM

Agreed.

But that's how Toriyama wants it, so there's nothing to be done.

One Strip! One Strip!
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#39705: Jun 4th 2016 at 8:26:43 AM

Ya know, as someone who's been through College; it is possible to balance a hobby and your occupation :V There's is absolutely no reason, other than Author intent, that Gohan cannot keep up his training and still commit to his job and family.

Like come on, what's with this zero sum "He can't be both a fighter and a scholar" bullshit. That's not how people work.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
FrozenWolf2 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#39706: Jun 4th 2016 at 9:01:10 AM

Which is hilarious cause the Japanese long held ideal warrior is the Cultured Badass

Who is both a Scholar and a Soldier

Praise be to the absolute Queen
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#39707: Jun 4th 2016 at 9:27:55 AM

That's wasn't the question, which was whether they had gendered terms like "he" or "she".

Little late, but yes, Japanese does have specifically male and female pronouns. They're just not used nearly as often as in English.

[up][up]I've always found it weird that people talk about it like that too. I've noticed people tend to get defensive of Gohan when you bring it up.

edited 4th Jun '16 9:31:19 AM by LSBK

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#39708: Jun 4th 2016 at 9:57:00 AM

Because you have people that actually do like Gohan as a character and are upset with how he's been handled and have haters (both legit and shallow) rubbing salt into the wound by exclaiming he was always a terrible character and are just clinging to old Cell Saga nostalgia.

Versus

People who actually do not care much about Gohan and are constantly being harassed by his more overzealous fans and are tired of the constant complaining about how he was "thrown under the bus".

Basically, its just a bunch of overreactions from both sides and missing the point; so standard Internet argument. I'm more neutral, but I can't really ignore my own annoyance with how he's been handled post Z.

edited 4th Jun '16 9:58:12 AM by BlackYakuzu94

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
IndirectActiveTransport plays capoeira from Chicago (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Every rose has its thorn
plays capoeira
#39709: Jun 4th 2016 at 12:35:15 PM

Yeah, no. Gohan replacing Goku permanently might have been able to work, but I'll take Uub and maybe Pan replacing Goku over that noise any day. And by Uub and Pan I mean the infinite potential they had as characters in the epilogue, not what GT gave us.

Of course I'm also the one who wanted Vegeta permanently removed from the main rival spot in favor of the Fat Majin Buu, who I imagined eventually being replaced by someone else in another three arcs. Clearly I don't identify with the fan base in many ways. In fact, the resurfacing of the alternate timelines had me wishing that we'd get a scene where the Fat Buu shows off how strong he's gotten by destroying Super Buu(and really, doesn't he deserve to die twice, he nearly drove the human race to extinction because he couldn't wait for an amount of time he already agreed to) but I've yet to see anyone else express such feelings.

Buldogue's lawyer
Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#39710: Jun 4th 2016 at 12:39:27 PM

So...can we just point out that Future Trunks needing Goku and Vegeta's help to deal with this problem makes absolutely no sense? The last time he saw anyone was after he went back to his timeline after Cell had been taken care of, you know, when Gohan was the strongest being on the planet, and when Goku had decided to remain dead to possibly prevent any future threats from coming to Earth because of him being a target; unless Trunks somehow went back to the main timeline at some point after that, he should still think that Goku is dead and that Gohan is still the strongest, so he wouldn't be trying to get help from Goku in the first place then, because he'd still be dead in his mind.

edited 4th Jun '16 12:39:58 PM by Ssj3Gojira

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#39711: Jun 4th 2016 at 12:40:38 PM

I imagine Trunks could very easily go "Gohan is now the protector of Earth, but Mr. Goku and my father should be free... and even if Goku's dead, he might agree to come back to help".

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#39712: Jun 4th 2016 at 12:47:26 PM

I imagine its probably just the TV promo summary filling us in. It'd be cumbersome for the summary to try and be accurate with something like: "Trunks comes back in time to ask for Gohan's help, but discovers that Goku had been brought back to life, and that he and Vegeta had far surpassed Gohan in strength. Realizing the strength gap, Trunks changed his mind and asked them for help..."

I mean, it could be a plot hole. It could be Trunks from an alternate future than the one we know. Did Trunks/Future Bulma travel to Namek and wish Goku back to life? Why is Future Goku alive to be corrupted by some evil dude in the first place?

-

Problem with Goku-corpse fusion:

Goku's body should be in Otherworld. Even if it isn't, it should be buried. If it wasn't, it should have atrophied and been utterly useless. Assuming Saiyan biology doesn't work that way, Goku's soul wouldn't be in the body in the first place. Vegeta was a spirit given back his body by King Yemma. But fusing with a corpse with no soul, that's new territory.

edited 4th Jun '16 12:53:17 PM by Soble

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!
IndirectActiveTransport plays capoeira from Chicago (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Every rose has its thorn
plays capoeira
#39713: Jun 4th 2016 at 12:47:55 PM

No, that's silly. Trunks obviously should think Goku is dead and Vegeta is the man who attacked him to ensure Cell became complete...

...unless...

The man named Black fused with Goku's corpse. So Bulma says "Fine, we'll fuse you with Goku's corpse too. Then fuse you with living Vegeta. Your victory will be guaranteed!"

Buldogue's lawyer
randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#39714: Jun 4th 2016 at 1:06:54 PM

Future Trunks has come back in time to ask the "Super" Fighters for help to defeat the new uprising threat to his time period.

It's not hard to summarize like that.

Unfortunately there are no spoilers.

edited 4th Jun '16 1:10:19 PM by randomness4

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
Hobgoblin Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#39715: Jun 4th 2016 at 1:11:50 PM

It's hard not to think of them as the Z-Fighters still.

IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#39716: Jun 4th 2016 at 1:15:24 PM

So we could say he came back to ask for help from...

... Super Warriors.

edited 4th Jun '16 1:15:43 PM by IAmNotCreativeEnough

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
Hobgoblin Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#39719: Jun 4th 2016 at 5:30:23 PM

There's no dodging that.

Now Link can't even do it as stress relief.

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
Arha Since: Jan, 2010
#39720: Jun 4th 2016 at 5:43:16 PM

If he climbs up on to Epona there's nothing 16 can do though.

Zeromaeus Since: May, 2010
#39721: Jun 4th 2016 at 6:02:11 PM

Well, it could run by Twilight Princess rules. 16 wouldn't do anything to Link because he is the cucco.

edited 4th Jun '16 6:02:22 PM by Zeromaeus

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#39722: Jun 4th 2016 at 8:02:21 PM

I never understood that. Beating up Cuccos causes Link to... possess them? Or is he just beating them into doing his bidding like some sick enslavement deal?

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
Ramona122003 Since: Jan, 2001
#39723: Jun 4th 2016 at 9:30:59 PM

I am really late to the Gohan conversation, but I wanted to add my useless two cents.

Gohan could work as a traditional hero like Superman, where he goes out of his way to save people and protect the Earth from threats, while having a day job. It would make him different from Goku who doesn't particularly care to save people unless they're within his line of sight or someone he cares for. And Goku tends to put a good fight ahead of saving the planet, while Gohan is more the opposite.

With that said, having Gohan copy Superman still requires him to train to increase his strength, while Superman just have to sunbathe. Also, Vegeta didn't get close to Goku's level easily. Vegeta had to go through six months none stop of harsh training with Whis (the greatest fighter in U7) to reach Goku's level. It is not something he can do on his lunch time or during summer breaks. In fact, Whis even tells Vegeta that he will never surpass Goku with the training he was doing, despite increasing his strength. So Gohan can become much stronger, but it require special training to reach God level.

I also find it funny that people says that Gohan needs to become stronger because he can't depend on daddy forever to protect him, yet people still call Future Trunks a badass and he's force to hop into his time machine and asked for help from his daddy. And depending on next weeks esp, he may only be a Super Saiyan, although he could be a Super Saiyan 2, which would still make him vastly weaker than slacker Gohan.

IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#39724: Jun 4th 2016 at 9:43:47 PM

People don't call Trunks a badass because he doesn't ask for help or because he's super strong or anything of the sort. People call him a badass because he is a badass.

Simply surviving the androids and getting back up to fight again makes him a badass.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#39725: Jun 4th 2016 at 9:59:32 PM

Unlike Vegeta, Gohan has responsibilities. He can ignore them, but Gohan won't do that unless necessary.

As Black Yakuzu pointed out, he doesn't need to ignore them. I fully agree with him that it's bullshit to pretend "training vs family duties" as some sort of dichotomy.

Hell, Goku in the Cell arc says training all the time isn't good for you and Vegeta was meant to push himself too hard. But I don't expect that to come up again because apparently 24/7 training is the only thing that matters!

Leaving the protection of Earth to either Goku or Vegeta is pretty damn irresponsible no matter how you look at it.

Which is also part of my point. The only reason they are trusted is because of meta reasons the characters shouldn't be aware of. Those two are an active threat to the Earth's safety and they have no intention of changing that.

I've always found it weird that people talk about it like that too. I've noticed people tend to get defensive of Gohan when you bring it up.

I'm confused by what you mean. Wouldn't what he said be a defense of Gohan?

Yeah, no. Gohan replacing Goku permanently might have been able to work, but I'll take Uub and maybe Pan replacing Goku over that noise any day. And by Uub and Pan I mean the infinite potential they had as characters in the epilogue, not what GT gave us.

The only potential they had is as completely blank slates.

I used to be all aboard the Oob train, GT misused him yadda yadda... but over time I've come to realize that he is little more than a pastiche of three other characters: Nam (motivation and background), Piccolo Junior (reincarnation of previous villain and debut at the next tournament) and Gohan (dormant power, rage boosts and being presented as a potential successor). He doesn't have anything unique to him, and all of those concepts were already better explored before him.

In universe, having Goku attempt to pass the torch to his son and then abandon that idea in order to train a random kid to be his successor is just silly. And out of universe, why try out and give up on Gohan as a successor only to try out the same concept again with Oob? What expectation is there that it should work better a second time, when Oob has nothing to even suggest he'd be a better pick for successor?

Oob is just a rehash of Gohan who is introduced at the last possible minute and has no development. I think he could be an interesting addition to the cast, but a horrible choice for a successor.

As for how GT handled him, I think the Baby arc did alright by him. He puts up an admirable fight against Baby, gets a fusion and the chance to show off some new abilities before he's defeated. He basically filled Piccolo's old role, which is appropriate given how much he drew from Piccolo Junior to begin with. But ultimately, he does better in this role than Piccolo ever did, because he even turns around his "defeat" to attack Baby from the inside and contribute to Goku's victory. In the end he had his moments, did more than any of the halfling Saiyans and had an actual impact on the final battle.

Super 17 and the Shadow Dragons really shafted him, but they shafted everyone except Goku and last-minute Vegeta. That was when GT truly became the GT of GT. It's horseshit all the way down.

Anyway, Pan could work as a successor, but I'd prefer to see it be Gohan passing the torch to her than Goku. I wanted Gohan to succeed Goku as the main character, but I don't think he'd need to occupy that role forever.

Of course I'm also the one who wanted Vegeta permanently removed from the main rival spot in favor of the Fat Majin Buu, who I imagined eventually being replaced by someone else in another three arcs. Clearly I don't identify with the fan base in many ways. In fact, the resurfacing of the alternate timelines had me wishing that we'd get a scene where the Fat Buu shows off how strong he's gotten by destroying Super Buu(and really, doesn't he deserve to die twice, he nearly drove the human race to extinction because he couldn't wait for an amount of time he already agreed to) but I've yet to see anyone else express such feelings.

That's probably because you're making Boo sound like he'd end up a completely different character. As someone who wishes to be seeing a lot more of him, I don't think he's a good fit for the rival role. And bringing back Evil Boo just to worf to Majin Boo sounds incredibly hamfisted.

I have mentioned before I'd like to see Vegeta retired permanently. But I don't want Goku getting a new rival, because I feel Vegeta and him are too fitting together. I think if he and Vegeta stayed dead in the Boo arc and remained part of the background cast as afterlife "buddies" it would be the best move for them. They could even still have Whis train them in the afterlife, and have other afterlife adventures when the series needs a change of pace.

So...can we just point out that Future Trunks needing Goku and Vegeta's help to deal with this problem makes absolutely no sense? The last time he saw anyone was after he went back to his timeline after Cell had been taken care of, you know, when Gohan was the strongest being on the planet, and when Goku had decided to remain dead to possibly prevent any future threats from coming to Earth because of him being a target; unless Trunks somehow went back to the main timeline at some point after that, he should still think that Goku is dead and that Gohan is still the strongest, so he wouldn't be trying to get help from Goku in the first place then, because he'd still be dead in his mind.

Yeah, that's pretty funny. The characters running on logic doesn't matter when the writers are only interested in Goku and Vegeta. It's a very telling sign that they don't really give a crap. It won't be as bad as Toei claiming it was Goku who defeated Cell, though.

With that said, having Gohan copy Superman still requires him to train to increase his strength, while Superman just have to sunbathe. Also, Vegeta didn't get close to Goku's level easily. Vegeta had to go through six months none stop of harsh training with Whis (the greatest fighter in U7) to reach Goku's level. It is not something he can do on his lunch time or during summer breaks. In fact, Whis even tells Vegeta that he will never surpass Goku with the training he was doing, despite increasing his strength. So Gohan can become much stronger, but it require special training to reach God level.

I really can't take the "hard work" argument seriously when it covers a period of six months. That is an incredibly small amount of time, for the result that it gives. It doesn't matter how difficult the work is, Gohan's spent longer in conditions that would logically be even harder (as Goku has described them as being so hard it is detrimental, defying the idea that only Training from Hell can matter). If it can be done in a short time frame, it would be possible for Gohan to manage - especially when Goku has pointed out that days of rest are necessary for better training. Maybe he takes longer to get there because he takes time off for other things. But he can still get there, especially given that he has more potential than Vegeta did.

I also find it funny that people says that Gohan needs to become stronger because he can't depend on daddy forever to protect him, yet people still call Future Trunks a badass and he's force to hop into his time machine and asked for help from his daddy. And depending on next weeks esp, he may only be a Super Saiyan, although he could be a Super Saiyan 2, which would still make him vastly weaker than slacker Gohan.

There's no shame in all in asking for help. Trunks tried his best and couldn't achieve something, so he turned to people who were better equipped for it. That's a different situation to Gohan leaving the job to people worse equipped for it because he doesn't try his best.


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