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Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#39176: May 20th 2016 at 8:28:41 PM

A lot of the jokes about Gohan also come from fans who think the whole thing is just being handled really poorly by Toriyama/Toei. Gohan is a more obvious/extreme case of the franchise's poor balancing of its cast, which has only become worse in more recent materials. There are a lot of jokes that are aimed more at what people have come to expect from Toriyama/Toei, because they don't have much faith in them at this stage.

I mean if Goten and Trunks could become Super Saiyan at a young age due to their fathers being Super Saiyans, what does that say about her if she is born with Vegeta now being a SSGSS?

No, because that's not why Goten and Trunks could become Super Saiyan at a young age - that's fanon. They're just presented as being prodigious, much in the same way Gohan was who achieved Super Saiyan at a similar age (Goten 7, Trunks 8, Gohan 9).

They could do a thing where they show the future of Online and how because of the book he wrote the Earth is now strong enough collectively to defend itself.

Vindicated by history.

The problem is that no-one with official capacity seems to care about vindicating Gohan's choices or vindicating their own choices regarding him. Gohan's tenure as a main character was abruptly derailed so Goku could be reinstated as a main character. His power ups were removed to focus more on Goku/Vegeta. With those results achieved, I don't think anyone cares about incorporating those elements into the story in a cohesive manner.

The biggest issue is that I don't think anyone cares about how the writing effects Gohan or his impact on the story. They are just means to an end, and that end is centered around Goku. Gohan's failure in the Boo arc didn't teach any lesson or follow any theme, it was the result of various circumstances necessary to put Goku on top. It doesn't matter what he's studying or where it will take it, because it's just a method to keep him from catching up Goku or Vegeta.

It felt like Super was trying to do something about it, by showing Gohan resolving to train once more. He wasn't involved in Universe 6, but the way they excuse him is fair. It's a battle with no stakes, and he still has his own commitments to keep to. Definitely a more preferable outcome than insisting he isn't a fighter but dragging him onto the frontlines to be worfed again and again. But the Super anime is limited by the fact that they keep following Toriyama's material, and so far they haven't really been able to incorporate the plot threads they've set up earlier (The Namekian Book of Legends, the energy drain from the Super Saiyan God ritual).

Raditz existed to reveal Goku's past, and had no relevance beyond that, despite the fact that being the brother of the main character should have made him very important.

I disagree with this. Raditz shouldn't have been made more important, and it would be very disappointing if he was (hello, Bardock...). So many people put too much stock into blood ties, which can really hurt a series with characters getting a lot of undue attention due to their blood relations over anything else.

Especially in a case like Raditz where your only relation is to someone who has never needed blood relatives, doesn't care about them, and actively rejects the idea of putting importance on them. I think Raditz served an important role in showing directly how Goku feels about blood ties and giving him a large role would immediately ruin that.

That reminds me of a review of DBZA where the reviewer praised TFS for having Goku learn the Kaio-ken/Genki Dama off-screen, instead devoting screentime to Goku asking about his father. They went as far as to say they had a better understanding about what's important than Toriyama did.

Which is simultaneously hilarious and infuriating, because this reviewer completely failed to consider what is important to Goku, instead putting their own priorities first like a goddamn idiot.

My answer to that is: who the hell cares about Dabura's sister? Like, not even one of his race. His sister. Flesh and blood family. The only reason to cross that line is to flesh both characters out by their relationship with each other.

Instead, they're like, "Meet Towa, she's Dabura's SISTER but that don't matter none and could have been completely skipped over because it's totally irrelevant to everything ever. Might as well pretend we didn't say it."

No, there was a reason for that - Towa being Dabra's sister came up because it made the characters erroneously think she was doing this because of Dabra, so they misunderstood her motivations.

I WOULD like to see more of Dabra because a) I like his design and powers b) Makai is a new concept that could be explored, which is good because when they try to explore existing concepts they retcon the fuck out of everything.

But I don't think his relation to Towa has to play into it. Personally, I would have just cut their relation because I don't want everything we get from Makai to relate to one family.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#39177: May 20th 2016 at 9:45:27 PM

The Namekian Book of Legends

The what what of what?

A lot of the jokes about Gohan also come from fans who think the whole thing is just being handled really poorly by Toriyama/Toei. Gohan is a more obvious/extreme case of the franchise's poor balancing of its cast

Yeah. As I've said, Toriyama has shown a willingness to totally toss characters under the bus to tell the story he wants.

As much as some of us love mocking Yamcha, you have to admit, breaking up a relationship that had been in place since the first arc, just so you could pair two other characters together to create a future child is a massive dick move.

And the sad part is, if he hadn't decided to just toss Launch out of the story, he could have used her instead, but he seemed to not think of that.

Gohan's tenure as a main character was abruptly derailed so Goku could be reinstated as a main character. His power ups were removed to focus more on Goku/Vegeta.

Indeed. Toriyama has the characters he likes, but it feels like he doesn't really care for or respect any of the other ones, and only keeps them around for arbitrary reasons. Hell, even with Goku, he went to a lot of effort to kill him off and keep him dead, even with an option to bring him back in-universe (New Namek).

He creates characters who could be really interesting (like Android 18 and Dabura) only to toss them out once they've served their arbitrary purpose. He doesn't really plan out story arcs long term—the only example is Gohan's arc, which he then abandoned as soon as he grew tired of it.

Right. I've said all this shit before. I'm sure you're all sick of it. I'm sure Saiga has some arguments about why these things are unimportant, and I'll end up admitting he has a point while still feeling the same way anyway, so I'll just say...

I don't know. Let's just say I said make Pan a Super Saiyan baby and leave it at that.

Good night everybody.

One Strip! One Strip!
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#39178: May 20th 2016 at 9:53:08 PM

As much as some of us love mocking Yamcha, you have to admit, breaking up a relationship that had been in place since the first arc, just so you could pair two other characters together to create a future child is a massive dick move.

No I don't! I don't think that has anything to do with under-utilizing the characters. Bulma and Yamcha's relationship was always a joke, and Vegeta and Bulma have gone on to become a really enjoyable character.

Also for the record, my comments on Gohan or other characters like Piccolo/18 do not mean I am on the "humans were unfairly used" bandwagon.

Anyway, I don't think Launch would be a good fit for Vegeta at all. Bulma and Vegeta make a lot of sense together, but Launch really would just be a means to create a new Saiyan. I think that 18 could have potentially been a good pairing for Vegeta, but that obviously wouldn't suit the need for Future Trunks at all.

Oh, and the Namekian Book of Legends was something that Super introduced. They changed Shenron's explanation of Super Saiyan God to say the knowledge of it is in the Namekian Book of Legends, but that has not been referred to again. It seemed like setting up a future plot point, but how can they follow up on it if they stick to the story drafts of someone who wasn't involved in that?

edited 20th May '16 9:54:31 PM by Saiga

Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#39179: May 20th 2016 at 9:54:08 PM

Especially since it wouldn't have made sense at all, since he'd be trying to kill his mom.

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#39180: May 20th 2016 at 9:55:35 PM

Yeah Future Vegeta/Future 18 can't work at all. Not with the story.

But Vegeta/18 in the present could have worked really well with their characters, if it weren't for the need for Future Trunks.

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#39181: May 20th 2016 at 9:56:51 PM

Bulma and Vegeta make sense? Like, I get Bulma and Yamcha being a joke, but that doesn't make the actual pairing better.

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#39182: May 20th 2016 at 9:57:14 PM

Makes more sense than 18/Goku, like that one bad fanfic thingy we discussed pages back. Remember that, guys? From the Dragon Ball Fanon Wiki with some story of Krillin becoming a Super Saiyan?

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#39183: May 20th 2016 at 9:59:06 PM

18/Goku also happened in another fanfic that had Raditz find out he gets larger Zenkai boosts than any other Saiyan, which he abuses so that he can kill Frieza in the first chapter, become King, and get a harem. >.>

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#39184: May 20th 2016 at 9:59:46 PM

[up][up][up] in the sense that Bulma is as shallow as you need to be to overlook Vegeta's previous (and current) douchbaggery in favour of boning, and they're both dicks to each other which makes for an entertaining dynamic. They're also probably the only two people thickskinned enough for each other.

Although, now that I think about it, blonde Launch would probably dig Vegeta since she lost interest in Ten when he became a good guy. But things get weird with normal Launch having a different personality...

edited 20th May '16 10:00:01 PM by Saiga

SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#39186: May 20th 2016 at 10:01:59 PM

No, 18/Yamcha. I'm sure that this is a thing that exists somewhere.

[up][up] Also, Vegeta really isn't that much of a dick anymore; at this point it's probably just to keep up appearances around everyone.

edited 20th May '16 10:02:46 PM by Ssj3Gojira

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#39187: May 20th 2016 at 10:15:52 PM

[up] Dragon Ball Multiverse.

edit: Yeah, but early Android arc Vegeta with nice Launch? Can't see it.

edited 20th May '16 10:16:35 PM by Saiga

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#39188: May 20th 2016 at 10:27:37 PM

Well, that's what I get for speaking of shipping.

And hey, I do think Bulma and Vegeta kinda work now, but marrying the dude who was indirectly responsible for killing your at the time current on again/off again boyfriend just seems questionable, joke relationship or not.

One Strip! One Strip!
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#39189: May 20th 2016 at 10:29:19 PM

I don't see it as any more questionable than the others being friends with the guy.

Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#39190: May 20th 2016 at 10:30:36 PM

...this is the same woman who decided to bring her barely one year old son to a battle between physical gods, and nearly got both of them killed because of it. There's a very real chance she's going to Hell at some point, just for sheer stupidity.

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
Rinsankajugin Since: Feb, 2012
Cortez from Parts Unknown (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#39192: May 21st 2016 at 3:00:29 AM

So Xenoverse has Old Save Bonus? Neat!

randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#39193: May 21st 2016 at 3:27:27 AM

Wow, Freezerator's lips look even worse in full detail 4D.

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#39194: May 21st 2016 at 3:28:49 AM

Bulma isn't actually a good or nice person.

randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#39195: May 21st 2016 at 3:33:15 AM

She doesn't have lots a common sense either.

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#39196: May 21st 2016 at 3:43:09 AM

I mean.

She invented the Dragon Radar and she's the richest person alive.

She doesn't actually need self-preservation.

Ikedatakeshi Baby dango from singapore Since: Nov, 2015 Relationship Status: Singularity
Baby dango
#39197: May 21st 2016 at 3:47:30 AM

Her friends are the strongest people in the galaxy under actual gods, self-preservation isn't really an issue. She does try to get on Whis good side when she realizes Goku can't beat Beerus.

RJ-19-CLOVIS-93 from New Zealand (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#39198: May 21st 2016 at 3:54:17 AM

OK, so there's going to be a villain/antagonist called Black Goku. In other words, all those millions of fanfics of Evil Goku are now canon. Or not. Eh, who really knows. Put on your tinfoil hats everyone!

wild mass guess Black Goku is a possible future Goku that became a God of Destruction, but went mad with power. He'll serve one way or another to give Goku some Character Development or something.

unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#39199: May 21st 2016 at 4:07:51 AM

I'm still betting on Time Breaker Bardock.

I mean.

"some confusing bits with time changing here and there"

edited 21st May '16 4:09:29 AM by unnoun

LordofLore Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Consider his love an honor

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