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Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#38501: May 1st 2016 at 10:42:34 PM

I was referring to the movies, where it was years instead of months.

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#38502: May 1st 2016 at 10:57:05 PM

Even then, Super only mentions the wish to erase memory of Boo as being 6 months later, then says time passed without being specific. We don't have an exact date for when Super is set.

Seems kind of sloppy tbh. I didn't mind Gohan being weaker, but the reasoning seems a bit flimsy. Its like I get the idea behind it; Gohan didn't train and therefore couldn't access his dormant power, but if the alternative was to just get angry, it feels weird that he couldn't do it that way.

But I understand, because if Gohan was that strong, nothing short of Buu and Super Saiyan 3 Goku would have stopped him.

I do think it's a little odd, because after Gohan mentions he's not getting strength through his anger there's no follow up (probably because the focus shifted from him).

One way to look at it all:

His anger was a shortcut to gain access to his dormant power. If he had trained, he would have access to it that way. His anger could then take him even further. Because he hadn't trained, the only thing he could do was fall back on his anger boost. Buuuut if that lack of training has made it harder to tap into his dormant power, then the rage boost is no longer enough of a shortcut to actually get there.

Or, simply: training brings him closer to accessing his dormant power. Slacking moves him further away from it. He was at the point where he couldn't reach it, even through his anger.

That's pretty much how it transpires in the Boo arc: when it's revealed that Gohan hasn't been training, both Goku and Vegeta make comments about him relying on his rage to boost him. Then Gohan explains that he has been angry, but it's not working for him.

I don't think this was done for "convenience" but because Toriyama wanted to make a point of showing how his slacking adversely affected him and if Gohan was able to just rely on his rage boosts then that would undermine the point.

Either way, my point still stands; it makes no sense for Gohan to retain all of his powers after six years of inactivity, only to drop even more than he did during the seven year timeskip after a year and a half.

Don't get me wrong, I agree with you. Seven years of slacking saw him still within the same ballpark of the other characters, and he didn't lose any access to his forms. A couple of more years and he's still ultimate. A year from then and he loses Ultimate, there's no mention of Super Saiyan 2, and he can barely maintain Super Saiyan. It's really weird.

edited 1st May '16 11:00:02 PM by Saiga

Cortez from Parts Unknown (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#38503: May 2nd 2016 at 12:08:53 AM

It's not really. That's how working out works. If if you don't stay in shape, you will get weaker.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#38504: May 2nd 2016 at 12:11:23 AM

good job you managed to miss every single thing said on the topic to provide an overly simplistic view of it

We had just pointed out how the outcome from his slacking has been wildly inconsistent each time it is seen

Not saying dumb shit like "it's weird that he got weaker by not training".

It's weird that he can go longer periods without training without regressing so much, but a short period of non-training is meant to serve as adequate justification for a massive loss in power and undoing a magic ritual and blocking access to one transformation and changing how another works.

edited 2nd May '16 12:13:46 AM by Saiga

IndirectActiveTransport plays capoeira from Chicago (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Every rose has its thorn
plays capoeira
#38505: May 2nd 2016 at 1:12:27 AM

It's a brick wall. Gohan still gets his rage boosts even after he trains to get stronger. He still gets them even after Guru does the unlock thing. That which sleeps within him doesn't awaken from training, even after doing nothing but train and rest so he can train more for a full year's time.

Because the simple explanation is the right one. Training isn't bringing out dormant power, it's destroying what is weak within you and building it back stronger, it is practicing movements until they become reflex. Gohan's dormant/sleeping/hidden power thing seems more like a mental block or something even weirder. And as of Battle Of Gods, Vegeta apparently had the same issue, so it's definitely not a hybrid thing.

Buldogue's lawyer
randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#38506: May 2nd 2016 at 1:25:52 AM

But it's kind of been discussed before that the Vegeta rage boosting is bull-pucky because it's never happened before.

For none other...but also, at some point that SSJ 2 was Gohan's rage boost peaking.

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
RJ-19-CLOVIS-93 from New Zealand (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#38507: May 2nd 2016 at 3:50:11 AM

I was wrong, Zen-O was not a 25. He's a 200. Also, DBM confirmed.

edited 2nd May '16 3:50:43 AM by RJ-19-CLOVIS-93

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#38508: May 2nd 2016 at 4:28:17 AM

That which sleeps within him doesn't awaken from training, even after doing nothing but train and rest so he can train more for a full year's time.

Factually incorrect:

Chapter: 402 (DBZ 208), P6.5, P7.1-6 Context: after Goku asks Gohan to be the next one to fight Cell Goku: “In the Room of Spirit and Time, the dormant power sealed away deep, deep inside him began to be released."

The training in the Room of Spirit and Time very specifically awakened his dormant power. That's how he surpassed Goku in the first place! Yes, he still had more dormant power left (as evidenced by the Cell Games) but Goku had cut their training short because it was too harsh.

Because the simple explanation is the right one. Training isn't bringing out dormant power

It's about as wrong as wrong can be:

Chapter: 151, P2.1 Karin: “Unlike the Super Holy Water, the Super God Water isn’t just a trick; it’s not merely ordinary water. Rather, it’s magnificent water capable of drawing out all the power you’ve got hidden inside you…However, if you’ve already mastered all of your power through training, even if you drink the Super God Water you won’t get stronger at all…”

Dormant power has always been something that is brought out through training. Yes, I do think in Gohan's case there is a mental block factor as well, but that doesn't prevent him from being able to realize his dormant power through training.

And as of Battle Of Gods, Vegeta apparently had the same issue, so it's definitely not a hybrid thing.

And as mentioned already, this came out of nowhere and wasn't explained. Gohan's rage boost was always well defined as something that happened to him because he had uniquely large dormant power (and that was attributed to him being a hybrid, which is wear the hybrid theory comes from - though it could still be unique to Gohan). Vegeta's already had his dormant power unlocked once before in the manga (that's what Babidi did to him) and it wasn't nearly as impressive - just enough to catch up to Super Saiyan 2 Goku.

IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#38509: May 2nd 2016 at 4:52:20 AM

Gohan having large amounts of potential was established since pretty much his introduction. It took like, what, five chapters before it became a clear thing?

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#38510: May 2nd 2016 at 9:43:09 AM

Regarding Gohan's Rage Boost

IIRC, the original conceit of Super Saiyan 2 is that it's Gohan releasing and controlling all of his hidden power as a Super Saiyan. He transformed on Android 16's urging by releasing his rage and tapping into it without any reservations, gaining full control over his power for the first time.

Gohan should still have that power as an adult, but now that he has control over it, it's his Super Saiyan 2 form. He can't release his Hidden Power while fighting Dabura at Super Saiyan 2 because he's already using it.

Conversely, if he's only using Super Saiyan 1, then that fits more with the argument that he's somehow lost his Hidden Power - and with it, the SS 2 form.

Meanwhile, Vegeta getting the Rage Boost is bizarre and nonsensical given that it's supposed to be Gohan's special trait and not a standard Saiyan thing, but Toriyama already crossed that line when Vegeta and Goku suddenly had Super Saiyan 2 in the Buu arc.

EDIT: Maybe Vegeta learned Rage Boost from the same place he learned Ki-Sensing; he just decided on a whim that he had it after learning it was a thing. Vegeta's ability to pull other people's tricks out of his ass when he needs them surpasses even Goku's.

edited 2nd May '16 9:46:27 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#38511: May 2nd 2016 at 4:08:37 PM

But we know for a fact that Gohan didn't lose his Super Saiyan 2 form considering he did it just a few chapters earlier, against Kibito.

alekos23 Since: Mar, 2013
#38512: May 2nd 2016 at 4:11:54 PM

He had too much potential for a Senju Bean to bring him to full power?

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#38513: May 2nd 2016 at 4:19:45 PM

A Senzu didn't heal him, Kibito did.

IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#38514: May 2nd 2016 at 4:23:11 PM

You're thinking Senzu.

Senju Bean would be something that Senju Hashirama would force Uchiha Madara to swallow, and I don't mean any sexual innuendo by that.

Senzu, by the by, literally means 'Sage Bean' or some approximation of that, so yeah, Krillin is saying "Sage Bean Bean" in DBZA.

edited 2nd May '16 4:24:12 PM by IAmNotCreativeEnough

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#38515: May 2nd 2016 at 4:25:56 PM

I mean, Hashirama was a master of Wood Style so it kind of fits.

alekos23 Since: Mar, 2013
#38516: May 2nd 2016 at 4:32:02 PM

Whoops.Senzu,yeah.

Well,Kibito obviously sucks and couldn't fully heal him.Or something.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#38517: May 2nd 2016 at 4:37:22 PM

Kibito healed Kaioshin from near-death.

randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#38518: May 2nd 2016 at 5:04:43 PM

[up]x4 Goku's the only one who doesn't add bean when saying that.

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#38519: May 2nd 2016 at 5:11:52 PM

Probably takes less energy to heal Kaioshin than Gohan. Maybe?

Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#38520: May 2nd 2016 at 6:08:53 PM

So apparently the new Super chapter came out a while ago; Frost tries to fight Vegeta in a fair fist fight and loses, Vegeta beats Magetta with name-calling and making him cry, and the fight with Cabba is about to happen.

Also, Super Saiyan Vegeta is incapable of lifting 1000 tons.

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#38521: May 2nd 2016 at 8:57:15 PM

Super Saiyan 2 was always Super Saiyan 2. The first time Gohan transforms it's treated as a new Super Saiyan form, and referred to as such even before it's revealed Goku and Vegeta can do it.

The idea it should have been exclusive to Gohan or was only Super Saiyan + hidden power is pure fanon. Usually the same line of logic that say Super Saiyan is a mystical form that only appears every thousand years.

It's nothing like Vegeta's rage moment. Nor is ki sensing, which has always been a very easy thing to do and Vegeta explains how he could acquired it so easily.

You never see the other characters learn to sense ki. It is something that comes with the territory, unless you're close-minded. Even Videl learned it instinctively.

RJ-19-CLOVIS-93 from New Zealand (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#38522: May 3rd 2016 at 1:45:03 AM

OK, so here are my predictions:

  • The multiverse tournament is going to be used in a much later arc. I believe that DB Super will end up extending beyond the end of Dragonball. It'd be the final or penultimate arc of Super
  • Bulma will turn out to have recently conceived Bra during the Champa Saga. Her pregnancy will be dealt with very soon, and there'll be some comedy involving her and Vegeta(since it's a very different dynamic from the last pregnancy)
  • The next arc will be our heroes exploring Universe 6, and we'll have a fallout from the Champa arc
  • Vegeta will spend time with the Universe 6 Saiyans. It'll turn out he's king in that universe
  • Hit will try to deal with Champa and/or Beerus, so that they can't boss around him. He'll be an anti-hero type who's ruthless, but has good intentions
  • Champa will start training Frost in order to be a counter to Hit, and Frost will get a perfected golden form. Champa will try to protect his rep as blackmail
  • We will see other alternate versions of characters.
  • We will learn more lore about how the god systems work

IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#38523: May 3rd 2016 at 3:14:01 AM

I find most of those... unlikely at best.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#38525: May 3rd 2016 at 1:36:08 PM

[up]

That takes guts.

One Strip! One Strip!

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