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Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#38476: May 1st 2016 at 7:30:27 PM

Actually, I was thinking about something; Gohan was absolutely wrecked by Fat Buu, who was comparable in strength to Super Saiyan 3 Goku, right up until the point where Goku said he could have annihilated him if he actually went all out in the beginning, when he was using Super Saiyan 2. He then apparently increased in strength due to his training with the Z Sword, with Supreme Kai thinking he'd have a chance at that point against Majin Buu, before the whole Super Buu thing happened; Super Buu is comparable in power to Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks, who is supposed to be stronger than Goku at the same level, with Goku himself saying he wouldn't even be able to do anything to Super Buu if they fought.

With all that in mind, how much more powerful than a Super Saiyan 3 would Ultimate Gohan have to be, compared to where his base was at before he ascended with Elder Kai's help, in order for him to practically steamroll Super Buu like he did?

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#38477: May 1st 2016 at 7:37:24 PM

Ultimate Gohan could be exactly as strong as Super Saiyan 3 Gohan would be. Unlocking power has always increased someone's base form, I think Ultimate would do the same.

We know, mostly, that he got super strong and doesn't need to use his Super Saiyan forms any more to reach that power. What Old Kaioshin did was allow him to access his dormant power without transforming, which is like having access to the Super Saiyan and an unknown amount of dormant power he had left in him at the same time.

So we don't know how much of his power-up is due to Super Saiyan multipliers being "baked in" and how much is Gohan's dormant power. It's possible that Old Kaioshin couldn't give him access to Super Saiyan 3 when Gohan didn't already have it, and he's really just an incredibly strong Super Saiyan 2. It's also possible that Old Kaioshin was able to tap into Gohan's potential for Super Saiyan 3, or even something further beyond that.

IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#38478: May 1st 2016 at 7:40:45 PM

I always assumed that Gohan got the power that he would get from his rage boosts and the power he got from his transformations all rolled up.

Which, if you think about it, can give you a loophole if you need him to get stronger for some reason, by having that still be a boost and not his actual base power (just a boost with no upkeep that he can use indefinitely).

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#38479: May 1st 2016 at 7:43:00 PM

It would probably have to be further beyond really, since I doubt base Gohan at that point was significantly stronger than base Goku; if Super Saiyan 3 Goku couldn't have done anything to Super Buu, then I don't see how Super Saiyan 3 Gohan, with the standard 400 times multiplier, would have fared any better than him or Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks would have/did.

edited 1st May '16 7:43:40 PM by Ssj3Gojira

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#38480: May 1st 2016 at 7:44:38 PM

I assume the same, his rage boosts were described as drawing out his dormant power and I would say it all comes from the same source. Ultimate Gohan is just getting all of it, no strings attached.

[up] Because we're not talking about base Gohan after the Z sword training. We're talking about hypothetical base Gohan after having his base dormant power drawn out in additional to his Super Saiyan power. Like, how Gohan got a power up to his base from Guru's unlock. Or how Kuririn got the same, when he's from a race that doesn't transform to gain power.

If the multiplier he was getting access to was still 400x, then behind the scenes you've got (Gohan + power unlock) x 400 which is greater than Goku x 400.

edited 1st May '16 7:46:44 PM by Saiga

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#38481: May 1st 2016 at 7:47:36 PM

Wait? I just realized:

Is Gohan the only half Saiyan that gets Rage boosts?

Do Trunks and Goten not get them?

One Strip! One Strip!
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#38482: May 1st 2016 at 7:49:52 PM

Trunks once gets mad and kicks Fat Boo through a mountain. Not explicitly described as a rage boost, though. Could have been Fat Boo being off-guard.

Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#38483: May 1st 2016 at 7:53:18 PM

[up][up][up] Even then, and I was talking about base Gohan after the Z Sword training, I don't think it worked like that, since Gohan himself said he didn't really feel any different after the ritual, and Elder Kai simply told him to try turning into a Super Saiyan, implying that was how he accessed his full potential.

edited 1st May '16 7:53:42 PM by Ssj3Gojira

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#38484: May 1st 2016 at 7:56:55 PM

Gohan didn't yet feel different because he hadn't tapped into the power yet. Given that it was a permanent change, it wasn't complete until he did that.

And, really, we're talking about dormant power here. Whatever his strength is after the ritual is based on whatever power he had inside him, not what he could already access.

Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#38485: May 1st 2016 at 8:06:13 PM

To be fair, it's not like Toriyama or Toei even remember how it's supposed to work, since GT still had him using Super Saiyan, Wrath of the Dragon showed him using it as a transformation in the same vein as Super Saiyan, Battle of Gods and the Beerus Saga had him using both the Ultimate form and the Super Saiyan form at separate points, and Resurrection F and its Saga had him practically lose the power, even though it was supposed to be permanent.

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#38486: May 1st 2016 at 8:52:18 PM

So I don't get it, if the only thing Gohan lost after the time skip was his rage boosted power ups, how would training in those seven years have helped him? I mean, he either didn't get mad enough fighting against Dabura and Buu or I'm missing something.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#38487: May 1st 2016 at 9:05:00 PM

Because he'd be even stronger than he was at the Cell Games. Goku had already surpassed Cell Games Gohan, and he has less potential. It's not about being at that level anymore but going beyond it.

Also, the fact that Gohan powers up from rage is because he had a lot of dormant power that he couldn't normally access. Training brings out that dormant power.

Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#38488: May 1st 2016 at 9:09:08 PM

Actually, can I say that Gohan losing his powers like he did in Resurrection F makes no goddamn sense? Seriously, Gohan doesn't train for 7 years after the Cell Saga, and while he has lost power, it's not really as much as most people think, and he still has access to the Grade IV Super Saiyan form he and his father unlocked in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber, hell he can still use Super Saiyan 2 by the time of the tournament. Fast-forward to maybe six years after the Buu Saga (3-6 I think), and he's not only able to use both his Potential Unleashed state and his Super Saiyan state, but he's still possibly the strongest fighter on Earth since he was the only one besides a rage-boosted Vegeta who was able to touch Beerus in any way, which even his father was unable to do. Then fast-forward to maybe a year and a half, and suddenly Gohan has weakened so much, that not only is he not completely certain that he can use Super Saiyan, but in order to regain access to his Ultimate Gohan powers, he needs to power up to a Super Saiyan state he can only maintain for like a couple minutes.

Tl;dr, Gohan somehow dropped to a 50th of his max power back in Battle of Gods over the course of a year and a half, even though he was still able to retain his power after at least six years of inactivity between the Buu Saga and Battle of Gods.

edited 1st May '16 9:10:25 PM by Ssj3Gojira

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#38489: May 1st 2016 at 9:29:25 PM

[up][up] That's what I'm saying tho; if Gohan's main source of power was his Unstoppable Rage, how do you train that? Would it be like taming your anger or something? From the way its worded, it just seems like all Gohan would have to do is just get mad and he'd be stronger than Goku or Vegeta in the Buu saga.

So what I'm wondering is, why couldn't he get mad?

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#38490: May 1st 2016 at 9:32:09 PM

Seven years of not needing to get mad made it harder for him to tap into that.

He did get pissed when Spopovitch Roflstomped Videl, but never got a chance to act on it.

One Strip! One Strip!
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#38491: May 1st 2016 at 9:34:26 PM

Yes, that has been pointed out before and is rather nonsensical. By the way,

but in order to regain access to his Ultimate Gohan powers, he needs to power up to a Super Saiyan state he can only maintain for like a couple minutes.

This is fanon. There's nothing about him regaining his Ultimate Gohan power as a Super Saiyan, it's rather unlikely that he did.

[up][up] It's not the main source of power. It's a method for accessing it. Training is another, more reliable method.

That's why Gohan was so damn strong after his training in the Room of Spirit and Time. He surpassed Goku even before he used his rage to tap into even more power.

edited 1st May '16 9:35:31 PM by Saiga

Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#38492: May 1st 2016 at 9:35:08 PM

I'm sure it was said in Super at some point.

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#38493: May 1st 2016 at 9:35:50 PM

Why couldn't he get mad?

Despite most of what happened in the Buu saga, Gohan had remained pretty calm until Buu absorbed Gotenks.

Not taking things seriously and being in a far away place not knowing what's going on...he didn't get the chance to get legit rage.

Fighting doesn't bring the anger.

edited 1st May '16 9:36:48 PM by randomness4

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#38494: May 1st 2016 at 9:36:08 PM

[up][up]It wasn't. It's fanon based on misinterpretations of mistranslations.

it just seems like all Gohan would have to do is just get mad and he'd be stronger than Goku or Vegeta in the Buu saga

Both Vegeta and Goku actually say this was the case. But if he had trained, he wouldn't have to rely on stuff like that to happen.

As it turned out, Gohan was mad, but for some reason it wasn't making him any stronger. He lost the ability to tap into his dormant power.

edited 1st May '16 9:37:29 PM by Saiga

Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#38495: May 1st 2016 at 9:40:32 PM

Either way, my point still stands; it makes no sense for Gohan to retain all of his powers after six years of inactivity, only to drop even more than he did during the seven year timeskip after a year and a half.

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#38496: May 1st 2016 at 9:45:31 PM

Seems kind of sloppy tbh. I didn't mind Gohan being weaker, but the reasoning seems a bit flimsy. Its like I get the idea behind it; Gohan didn't train and therefore couldn't access his dormant power, but if the alternative was to just get angry, it feels weird that he couldn't do it that way.

But I understand, because if Gohan was that strong, nothing short of Buu and Super Saiyan 3 Goku would have stopped him.

edited 1st May '16 9:46:16 PM by BlackYakuzu94

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#38497: May 1st 2016 at 9:47:10 PM

He couldn't because Toriyama didn't want him to anymore.

That way, Goku could be the hero.

Wait, are we talking about in the Buu Saga, or the Resurrection F Movie / Arc?

Cause depending on which one, my comment may not apply.

One Strip! One Strip!
randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#38498: May 1st 2016 at 9:49:39 PM

So...we're going with the "would've been to convenient"...because it would have.

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#38499: May 1st 2016 at 9:52:58 PM

I'm talking about the Buu saga btw.

[up]In the Buu saga? Definitely, it would have undercut the significance of Vegeta's Face–Heel Turn if Gohan was still stronger than him, as the latter would have just smacked him down after he pulled his stunt at the ring.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Rinsankajugin Since: Feb, 2012
#38500: May 1st 2016 at 10:34:30 PM

The Beerus Saga was 6 months after the Buu Saga, not 6 years.

Also, how about stickin' Gohan in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber for about 6-10 days and let him scream his way out? That way he can train hardcore and he doesn't even have to miss any business meetings or deadlines!

Put Piccolo in there too, he needs some bulking up as well.

There ya go, Goku/Vegeta/Gohan/Piccolo for the 4-man Universe 7 team in a 48-way tournament.

edited 1st May '16 10:36:23 PM by Rinsankajugin


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