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IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#38451: May 1st 2016 at 6:51:40 PM

@Saiga

But that could be just that, his physical features. It wouldn't be that big of a stretch for the small change in his physical body to remain even if he has to re-access his power. And it could be just momentary - as in he needs to relearn how to access all of that power.

I'm just trying to explain why Goku didn't just fetch Gohan to kill Majin Buu while Vegeta was getting his teeth punched in.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#38452: May 1st 2016 at 6:52:37 PM

They actually address that in the manga. Goku wanted to do that, Vegeta went for symbolism.

Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#38453: May 1st 2016 at 6:52:54 PM

Because it would take too long to get there, and Buu could have possibly killed Vegeta during that time, which would have removed him from existence due to being double dead.

[up] That too.

edited 1st May '16 6:53:13 PM by Ssj3Gojira

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#38454: May 1st 2016 at 6:53:27 PM

...

no.

No, no, no.

Why?

Why is it a debate....?

No.

Don't tell me...

Did Toriyama not say what form Gohan was using?

Are you kidding me?

Something that simple was never clarified?

Why?

Why?

All he has to do is say He was using (insert super saiyan form here) when fighting Dabura.

That's not hard. Why would't he just say something?

That's not even something that should be a debate.

One Strip! One Strip!
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#38455: May 1st 2016 at 6:54:44 PM

It's one of those long standing debates in Dragon Ball fandom.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#38456: May 1st 2016 at 6:56:06 PM

[up][up] You know Toriyama doesn't take part in internet debates in the Western fandom, right?

Also, the biggest reason there is a debate is because neither answer is very simple. Just telling us which form it was wouldn't answer the why.

edited 1st May '16 6:59:11 PM by Saiga

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#38457: May 1st 2016 at 6:59:20 PM

Well, I'm not asking him to (because internet debates are brain-melting enough as is depending on the topic, even her on Tv Tropes).

I'm just wondering why he never clarified what form Gohan was using? I mean, it shouldn't have to be something we debate. It's the kind of thing that should be clarified.

Refusing to give a name for Frieza's race is one thing. Refusing to name Bulma's mom is something else.

But not giving a simple he was using (insert super saiyan form here) when he was fighting Dabura statement is just...

That was an important fight in the series. That was an important plot element. Something like that needs to be clear.

Why wouldn't he make it clear? Even now, he could say something about it. So why doesn't he?

[up] Not sure how it's not simple.

Is it because it's not clear whether Dabura's Perfect Cell level strength is post Self destruct, or pre Self destruct?

Is there something else?

edited 1st May '16 7:00:37 PM by HandsomeRob

One Strip! One Strip!
unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#38458: May 1st 2016 at 7:00:36 PM

Toriyama doesn't give a shit.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#38459: May 1st 2016 at 7:01:46 PM

He should.

It's his world. There are things he has to give a shit about.

Now, maybe if I ever create a world like that, and end up in the same situation, I'll change my tune, but for now, I'm gonna be a true internet fanboy and complain about something I don't like not being the way I like it.

One Strip! One Strip!
unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#38460: May 1st 2016 at 7:04:13 PM

Would it actually make for a better story, or just shut up nerds and otakus on the internet who have nothing better to do?

Would it get the chapter out faster? Improve the quality?

Toriyama's artistic and aesthetic priorities are not quite ours.

IndirectActiveTransport plays capoeira from Chicago (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Every rose has its thorn
plays capoeira
#38461: May 1st 2016 at 7:04:21 PM

Toriyama doesn't really have Fanservice fights. Then again, when I think Fanservice fight, I think Fanservice.

Like Android 18 and Zangya Mud Wrestling.

So I suppose you'll need to be more clear.

18 would obliterate Zangya. The only viable "fan services" fights as you describe would be some combination of Mai, Chichi and Launch during the Piccolo Jr arc or Videl vs Launch post Cell pre Beerus.

Buldogue's lawyer
Hobgoblin Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#38462: May 1st 2016 at 7:04:57 PM

I think it's in the contract for manga writers that they have to troll the people that read their series.

unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#38463: May 1st 2016 at 7:05:16 PM

Wouldn't Videl be like 12 immediately post Cell?

She and Gohan are the same age.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#38464: May 1st 2016 at 7:06:04 PM

I'm just wondering why he never clarified what form Gohan was using?

How is this hard to understand? Think of all the times you get a statement to clarify what form a given character is using in a fight. No-one has ever asked Toriyama the question, because the debate does not exist in the circles where that is possible.

As for the manga itself, it's a debate because the writing is ambiguous. That was probably not Toriyama's intent, so he wouldn't feel a need to specify which form Gohan was using.

Also bear in mind this fight took place before he even coined "Super Saiyan 2" and so he didn't have a convenient way to refer to the form. It's also possible he hadn't fully cemented what Super Saiyan 2 was at this stage.

There are many reasons for the ambiguity - various statements, Dabra's vague strength (Cell is a very wide range by himself), problems with the artwork, differing official statements, etc.

Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#38465: May 1st 2016 at 7:06:27 PM

Because considering the fact that Gohan had lost a significant amount of power over the timeskip, and the fact Vegeta flat-out said that he was nowhere near his power when he fought Cell, it wouldn't matter whether it was Perfect Cell or Super Perfect Cell, Gohan would still need Super Saiyan 2 to deal with either.

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#38466: May 1st 2016 at 7:07:06 PM

@Saiga

Did they actually say that explicitly?

I seem to recall that Vegeta pretty explicitly went for symbolism, but at least in the spanish version Goku wasn't really offering many ideas on his end.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#38467: May 1st 2016 at 7:12:34 PM

Because considering the fact that Gohan had lost a significant amount of power over the timeskip, and the fact Vegeta flat-out said that he was nowhere near his power when he fought Cell, it wouldn't matter whether it was Perfect Cell or Super Perfect Cell, Gohan would still need Super Saiyan 2 to deal with either.

Not necessarily. That significant amount of power he lost involved losing the ability to gain power through rage, and guidebooks even say his strength was not different from his unenraged Cell arc self. Who was superior to the version of perfect Cell that fought Goku, even with Super Saiyan 1.

Even "perfect Cell" by himself, refers to multiple stages of power. He used two different levels against Vegeta and Trunks, two against Goku, two more against Gohan, then he self destructed and came back stronger. And that's not even counting his usage of Grade III.

It's a very wide range.

[up] yes. When he finds out Vegeta is going to bring back everyone on Earth to life, Goku says they'll get Gohan and Gotenks to fight.

edited 1st May '16 7:16:30 PM by Saiga

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#38468: May 1st 2016 at 7:12:35 PM

Also bear in mind this fight took place before he even coined "Super Saiyan 2" and so he didn't have a convenient way to refer to the form. It's also possible he hadn't fully cemented what Super Saiyan 2 was at this stage.

Shit.

There are many reasons for the ambiguity - various statements, Dabra's vague strength (Cell is a very wide range by himself), problems with the artwork, differing official statements, etc.

Double shit. The first one especially is an issue I hadn't considered. So this is never discussed in Japan? I mean, they must have wondered if Gohan fought at Super Saiyan 2 as well?

I still find it odd, but I guess that's how it is. I'll drop it for now.

One Strip! One Strip!
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#38469: May 1st 2016 at 7:14:42 PM

As I said, there have been official statements, even those that touch on the ambiguity of the matter, but they've never seen fit to take it any further.

Most of them either just describe him as Super Saiyan or Super Saiyan 2 without any further explanation. Tenkaichi 3's profiles actually say he didn't use Super Saiyan 2 after the tournament, and note that it's unknown why that would be the case.

Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#38470: May 1st 2016 at 7:14:51 PM

[up][up][up] You mean power through rage, right? Cause I don't see how you can't get anger through rage.

edited 1st May '16 7:15:01 PM by Ssj3Gojira

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
IndirectActiveTransport plays capoeira from Chicago (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Every rose has its thorn
plays capoeira
#38471: May 1st 2016 at 7:16:13 PM

In series chronology, yes, I mean post Cell in relation to how old Launch would be. I'm setting Videl's minimum "fanservice" as high school, when the readers were first introduced to her.

Daimo Piccolo works too, you can still have Launch vs Mai. I guess the Piccolo arcs were/are more appealing, because Dragon Ball Evolution used those.

Buldogue's lawyer
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#38473: May 1st 2016 at 7:20:52 PM

Actually, would that imply that when Gohan went Super Saiyan 2 against Cell, he was also getting a rage boost on top of that, making him even more powerful than he would have otherwise?

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#38474: May 1st 2016 at 7:22:19 PM

Gohan hasn't been mad enough since Cell.

There. That's explained.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#38475: May 1st 2016 at 7:22:31 PM

Probably. I mean, he reached the form through rage, and Goku was specifically counting on that ability.

[up] Gohan can still use Super Saiyan 2 though, and he explained that he was angry when fighting Dabra.

edited 1st May '16 7:23:15 PM by Saiga


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