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sockpuppet1 Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#3626: Sep 28th 2013 at 1:43:54 PM

Gogeta vs Vegito

Vegetto is at least a couple dozen times stronger. More likely hundreds of times stronger.

Vegito and Gogeta are the same person with different clothes on, in my opinion.

Your opinion would be wrong. They have entirely different powers and abilities.

edited 28th Sep '13 1:44:00 PM by sockpuppet1

Nikkolas from Texas Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#3627: Sep 28th 2013 at 2:16:19 PM

W Hy do you think Vegito so much stronger than Gogeta?

edited 28th Sep '13 2:16:43 PM by Nikkolas

ScorpioRat from Houston, Texas Since: Jan, 2013 Relationship Status: Forming Voltron
#3628: Sep 28th 2013 at 2:19:54 PM

I believe it was stated somewhere that the fusions using the earrings are stronger than the Fusion Dance ones.

Cider The Final ECW Champion from Not New York Since: May, 2009 Relationship Status: They can't hide forever. We've got satellites.
The Final ECW Champion
#3629: Sep 28th 2013 at 2:23:31 PM

And there is little on screen/panel evidence for statement. From what I can see they both did the exact same thing. (fly, move fast, shoot KI) Vegito got to do a little more because he was around longer but I do not remember him doing anything specifically that I could not imagine Gogeta doing.

I guess the only real difference is Gogeta's spontaneous knowledge of Hindu/Buddhist metaphysics but that would not have been relevant against Buu, a wizard's creation and Vegito did pretty much No-Sell all of Buu's magic save for his silly breaktheportarafusionbutnotthefusiondancestomachenzymes.

Modified Ura-nage, Torture Rack
ScorpioRat from Houston, Texas Since: Jan, 2013 Relationship Status: Forming Voltron
#3630: Sep 28th 2013 at 2:32:05 PM

I could have sworn it was a said fact in the manga, so that does count for evidence. We have to take their word for it unless something else completely contradicts it.

sockpuppet1 Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#3631: Sep 28th 2013 at 2:41:24 PM

W Hy do you think Vegito so much stronger than Gogeta?

Base Vegetto was stated to have a chance against Buutenks. SS 3 Gogeta is weaker than Buuhan.

I could have sworn it was a said fact in the manga, so that does count for evidence. We have to take their word for it unless something else completely contradicts it.

It was.

And there is little on screen/panel evidence for statement.

Vegetto beat Buuhan with just SS, Gogeta was stated and implied to not be able to beat Buuhan at his full strength (SS 3). And aside from that, it's directly stated the earrings are stronger than the dance, so Vegetto is stronger than Gogeta.

edited 28th Sep '13 2:48:43 PM by sockpuppet1

Cider The Final ECW Champion from Not New York Since: May, 2009 Relationship Status: They can't hide forever. We've got satellites.
The Final ECW Champion
#3632: Sep 28th 2013 at 2:45:44 PM

The Kai just seemed to be dismissing the metamorphs but I did not put much stock on it (their fusion lasted while inside Buu), similar to how he complained about the dragon balls, I just took it as him being upset the noble event of his life giving was completely overshadowed.

On a side note, dragon ball used metamorphosis correctly, something Pokémon, Digimon, Mighty Morphin' Power Rangers and Animorphs were not able to do.

edited 28th Sep '13 2:46:14 PM by Cider

Modified Ura-nage, Torture Rack
Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#3633: Sep 28th 2013 at 2:52:43 PM

Wait, how did Pokémon use it?

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
sockpuppet1 Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#3634: Sep 28th 2013 at 2:53:59 PM

That doesn't even make any sense. Old Kai indirectly stated that Potara is hundreds of times stronger than the dance, and he's a god, so he should know what he was talking about. And Goku (plus all supplemental material) agreed with him after seeing it in use, like for example expressing surprise that Vegetto was stronger than Buuhan, even after knowing that Potara was much, much stronger than the dance and after getting a lot of knowledge of the effects of the dance.

Base Vegetto can probably match SS 3 Gogeta to be honest.

edited 28th Sep '13 3:13:56 PM by sockpuppet1

Cider The Final ECW Champion from Not New York Since: May, 2009 Relationship Status: They can't hide forever. We've got satellites.
The Final ECW Champion
#3635: Sep 28th 2013 at 3:07:51 PM

I don't remember any specific numbers but you know what, I don't care. I am just going to read the thing again, from the start, so I can argue about it on the internet better.

[up][up]what's that? your catepillar is evolving into a cocoon! Watch your pupae evolve into an adult!(it should be metamorphosis)

Modified Ura-nage, Torture Rack
sockpuppet1 Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#3636: Sep 28th 2013 at 3:13:33 PM

The numbers themselves come from guidebooks (except the x50 multiplier for SS, that comes from Toriyama), not the manga. The base for Vegetto being that much stronger is Old Kai saying that Goku + Gohan with Potara would beat Buutenks handily in base. Even in base, Gohan is likely stronger than Vegeta at this time, but Base Vegetto should still be in the same league as Base "Gokan", i.e. stronger than SS 3 Gogeta. Not that the specifics matter much, Vegetto still ends up being hundreds of times stronger either way (most who don't accept that guidebook multipliers for SS 2 and SS 3 say they're too small if anything).

On the low end (disregarding Old Kai's line about base Gokan being able to stomp Buutenks), he's still at least a couple dozen times stronger.

Cider The Final ECW Champion from Not New York Since: May, 2009 Relationship Status: They can't hide forever. We've got satellites.
The Final ECW Champion
#3637: Sep 28th 2013 at 3:24:01 PM

Well, I am still reading it, though I think I managed to get a different translation or something.

Bulma is a fairy instead of a witch. Admittedly, that does make more sense when I think about it. The stars on the ball are in a different pattern than I remember. I did not realize how much Bulma had grown, she looks like a tall teen, if I my memory is correct and Goku is a teen too anyway.

Modified Ura-nage, Torture Rack
Spirit Pretty flower from America Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: Hooked on a feeling
Pretty flower
#3638: Sep 28th 2013 at 3:35:51 PM

Took me a while but I found the passage on the fusions.


Elder Kai: Fusion huh? That thing the kids were doing, eh? Do you think he'll just stand there and let you do it?

Goku: So what do I do? You're the one who wants me to beat him!

Elder Kai: That's right. Take one of these Potara and put it on your ear.

Goku: Will I get stronger?

Elder Kai: Have Gohan put on the other one on his ear. That's all.

Goku: Really?

Elder Kai: Of course! It's even better than Fusion! It's been our secret for ages.

-Supreme Kai and Kibito fusion shenanigans ensues-

Goku: This is great mister! How long does it last?

Elder Kai: The Potara doesn't have that limitation. It lasts forever.


Here it looks like he's calling it better mostly due to it being less impractical. But really from this translation it could go either way.

edited 28th Sep '13 3:38:20 PM by Spirit

#IceBearForPresident
Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#3639: Sep 28th 2013 at 3:39:05 PM

[up][up][up][up] I thought you were referring to fusion for some reason.

[up][up][up] Wouldn't "Gokan" be stronger than Gotenks anyways since Gohan was in his Mystic Saiyan form at the time?

edited 28th Sep '13 3:42:13 PM by Ssj3Gojira

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#3640: Sep 28th 2013 at 3:40:18 PM

Yeah, I'm unsure of whether Potara is "better" because the result is better, or because the method itself is faster and permanent.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
sockpuppet1 Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#3641: Sep 28th 2013 at 3:41:27 PM

[up][up][up] That's because it's a flawed translation. The direct translation is "the effect is greater" than fusion, which is really the only way the following dialogue and every single guidebook makes sense... or that scene itself, since it involves Goku being repeatedly surprised by how much stronger than the dance the earrings are.

[up] It's because the result is stronger. This is stated. Multiple times. In multiple different sources.

Also, Goten and Trunks aren't much weaker than their dads, and Gotenks isn't that much weaker than Gogeta, so that's another way the "it's more practical" interpretation of the line makes no sense... and that's not even getting into Goku saying stuff like "Potara is the only way to beat Buu" and not saying that the dance can beat Buu until right after they rip Gohan out.

edited 28th Sep '13 3:50:10 PM by sockpuppet1

Cider The Final ECW Champion from Not New York Since: May, 2009 Relationship Status: They can't hide forever. We've got satellites.
The Final ECW Champion
#3642: Sep 28th 2013 at 3:49:34 PM

Okay, its the second chapter where he calls her a witch. It is all coming back to me. Bulma (Guess I should call her Burma...I am still used to the video games where they use an L) was a bit of brat huh?

Modified Ura-nage, Torture Rack
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#3643: Sep 28th 2013 at 4:51:04 PM

I would say Potara is better because it's more stable.

Due to it being permanent, you don't have to worry about the fusion crapping out on you at a bad time(like it did for Gotenks).

If the dub is accurate, then going Super saiyan or Super Saiyan three burns up the time even faster(I think it was implied that that happened, but I'm not sure).

That being said, Fusion has the advantage of not forcing the two who are fusing to stay that way forever. And while it's never done in series, there is a least an implication that it can be undone as well (Piccolo did tell them to do it, even if they didn't know how).

Gogeta getting straight to business vs Vegito screwing around (even if it was for a good reason) is a good example of both. Dance fusion means you have to make every second count. Not bit of power can be wasted, cause when it's done, you are not vulnerable for half an hour.

Potara fusion gives you more time, possibly way more time than you need, but you gotta choose wisely and live with the decision afterwards(recall how pissed Vegeta was when Goku waited until the very last moment to tell him that the fusion was permanent).

One Strip! One Strip!
sockpuppet1 Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#3644: Sep 28th 2013 at 4:56:09 PM

No, it's better because it results in a much, much stronger fusion. This is stated many times and is really very simple.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#3645: Sep 28th 2013 at 4:57:23 PM

[up]

Well yeah. That's what I meant by more stable.

One Strip! One Strip!
Cider The Final ECW Champion from Not New York Since: May, 2009 Relationship Status: They can't hide forever. We've got satellites.
The Final ECW Champion
#3646: Sep 28th 2013 at 4:57:32 PM

Bulma...Burma's hair has changed from grey to purple to green. Haha, the colors of her son and father.

Modified Ura-nage, Torture Rack
sockpuppet1 Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#3647: Sep 28th 2013 at 4:59:29 PM

[up][up] But you mostly talked about how it's better because there's no time limit. The time limit is basically a non-factor; Potara is better because the result of a Potara fusion will be dozens to hundreds of times stronger than the result of a dance fusion.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#3648: Sep 28th 2013 at 5:08:43 PM

[up]

I see your point.

I wonder if the lack a time limit is why it's more powerful. Like since there's no worry about keeping the Power Level of both fighters equal, more power can be used for other things.

Kinda like full time Super Saiyan, where maintaining it became as easy as breathing, so they could devote more power to actual fighting.

One Strip! One Strip!
Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#3649: Sep 28th 2013 at 5:09:18 PM

[up][up][up] It's like color schemes for hair in Jojo.

edited 28th Sep '13 5:09:41 PM by Ssj3Gojira

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
Spirit Pretty flower from America Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: Hooked on a feeling
Pretty flower
#3650: Sep 28th 2013 at 5:10:18 PM

No, it's better because it results in a much, much stronger fusion. This is stated many times and is really very simple.

Where is this stated? That's the part that's confusing. An exact quote, like what I did up there, is all we're asking. I admit that the translation I quoted up there might not be accurate, yes, and I hate using the 'Only what is stated in the original manga counts' card, but unless it is straight up said "A warrior from the Potara fusion is without a doubt stronger than a warrior from the dance fusion even if the same two people fuse" then any time someone says "Potara is better" or "Potara is more efficient" can simply mean 'you don't need to do a dance or have a time limit, ergo this method is "better"'.

edited 28th Sep '13 5:20:07 PM by Spirit

#IceBearForPresident

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