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randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#36426: Mar 25th 2016 at 6:00:01 PM

They weren't?

When did Their bodies get teleported?

Chaozu didn't even have a body to move.

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#36427: Mar 25th 2016 at 6:02:17 PM

And let's get real, Toei is more consistent than Toriyama when it come to remembering their own material.

They really aren't. And that's not a fair comparison because they don't have nearly as much material to begin with.

Also we have no idea how much of the anime's depiction of Hell came from Toriyama because they don't specify and they certainly don't say he designed Hell.

[up] Goku brought that up. God recreated it.

edited 25th Mar '16 6:02:43 PM by Saiga

IndirectActiveTransport plays capoeira from Chicago (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Every rose has its thorn
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#36428: Mar 25th 2016 at 6:03:08 PM

Soble, I don't know if you've been told or not but I'm going to anyway. Goku didn't give up their only chance of winning to be fair to Vegeta, he told Vegeta he was fighting because Vegeta didn't stand a chance and only let Vegeta take a shot when it was clear he would run out of energy before small Buu.

That said, I half agree with you about super saiyan. I do think it would have been better if it had stopped at 1. However, I also think it would be better if there was some enemy, somewhere, at sometime that both required Super Saiyan 3 to fight and was actually defeated by someone using super saiyan three.

Super Saiyan was needed and sufficient for defeating Freeza and the Androids who were not Cell. Super Saiyan 2 was needed and sufficient for defeating Cell and Yakkon. Super Saiyan 3 was needed for any form of Buu and could have defeated Fat Buu but it did not happen.

Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan was needed and sufficient for defeating Golden Freezer. So that's one form already on the right track. Super Saiyan God was needed to fight but insufficient for defeating Beerus, but that I can live with, Super Saiyan God was the legend of the ultra powerful warrior who failed. Beerus remained undefeated throughout, the gap between protagonists and Beerus was way larger than that between Protagonists and Buu/Cell. Super Saiyan 3 is the super form that was supposed to be awesome but never won anyone anything.

In my opinion, that's what super should have been doing with it's interquel to an interquel bullshit. Introducing a pre Beerus enemy whom pushed Goku/Gotenks to super saiyan 3 and then was defeated by them. As it is now, Super Saiyan 3 is better off not existing but it could have been used better. Hell, send Trunks/Goten/Pan on their own adventures separate from Goku/Vegea, let them get pushed to super saiyan 3 and use it to achieve victory-it could still prove worthy of existing. But TOEI/Toriyama seem uninterested. Tipping the scales higher has been all the rage since Piccolo Daimo.

edited 25th Mar '16 6:22:54 PM by IndirectActiveTransport

Buldogue's lawyer
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#36429: Mar 25th 2016 at 6:06:48 PM

H Irudegarn was beaten by Super Saiyan 3.

But I don't think getting a win is important anyway. It was needed for both Goku and Gotenks to even survive against Boo, that's enough for me. For it to fail to defeat an enemy suits the most inefficient form (same for Super Saiyan God).

randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#36430: Mar 25th 2016 at 6:18:54 PM

When Piccolo was revived he didn't get moved back to Earth either, they had to wish him to Namek from Kai King's place.

Maybe it just is inconsistent.

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Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#36431: Mar 25th 2016 at 6:23:05 PM

Yes, that was what Tobias is saying. The anime is inconsistent with showing some people being revived directly on Earth.

Ramona122003 Since: Jan, 2001
#36432: Mar 25th 2016 at 6:29:52 PM

If they were revived back into their original bodies, they would have woken up in Bulma's capsule chiller. That is where all the Earth's fighters were placed after the battle with the Saiyans. There was never said or even hinted that their bodies disappeared upon death like Goku and taking to the afterlife. Kami just disappeared and reappeared back on the Lookout.

But it wasn't just the anime, the manga did the exact same thing. The only real inconstancy is the people in Hell keeping their bodies which was stated to be special privilege and even then Toriyama had Frieza keep a version of his body in Hell instead of him just being a fluffy cloud and Frieza wasn't reborn as Piccolo said should happen to Vegeta. Hell being candy land also goes against why Yemma put Dabura in Heaven since he states he would enjoy Hell since it's like the Demon Realm. Now, if the Demon Realm is like Earth's Hell, it brings some questions about what Heaven looks like.

edited 25th Mar '16 6:33:22 PM by Ramona122003

unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#36433: Mar 25th 2016 at 6:30:44 PM

King Kai said they were training with him.

Sorta hard to do without bodies.

Ramona122003 Since: Jan, 2001
#36434: Mar 25th 2016 at 6:36:43 PM

Yes, but their bodies were never transported like Goku when he died. Their bodies were still on Earth and collected by their friends after the battle with the Saiyans and persevered for their eventual revival. Also, Piccolo was revive on King Kai's planet like Goku, while Kami was sent back to Earth. He could have teleported, but all hints suggests that he just reappeared where he died.

And here is the link that talks about Toriyama's involvement in Toei's version of Hell:

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/production/toriyama/

Second, the Dragon Ball Z Anime Special also noted that the episode where Goku accidentally falls down to Hell is also “full of Akira Toriyama-sensei‘s ideas!!” Unfortunately, it is not any more specific than that. Interestingly, the entry for Hell in Daizenshuu 7’s glossary notes that Hell is cut off from the above world by mysterious clouds, which people coming from above can pass through, but which people coming from below cannot, thus preventing criminals from flying out and escaping. All entries in Daizenshuu 7’s various dictionaries are broken up into several subsections, such as “first appearance”, “special characteristics”, “history”, or the like, and anime-only stuff is included in a “anime” subsection. Despite the cloud barrier only showing up in the anime, Daizenshuu 7 does not place it into an “anime” subsection. This may just be a mistake, or it may be because the cloud barrier idea was part of Toriyama’s memo on Hell. There is at least one proven example of the later sort of thing: in Piccolo’s Daizenshuu 7 biography, it mentions Piccolo’s weakness to high-frequency noises such as whistling, which it includes under “special characteristics” and not “anime”, despite this only being seen in Dragon Ball Z Movie 4. In a different part of Daizenshuu 7, it says that Toriyama came up with this Namekian weakness, despite it only appearing in the movie, so this is probably why Daizenshuu 7 did not file it under “anime”. Therefore, the cloud barrier may have likewise come from Toriyama.

Finally, the Dragon Ball Z Anime Special guide notes that it was also Toriyama’s idea to create the filler scene where Goku breaks off a piece of the clouds that surround the Serpent Road and eats it.

edited 25th Mar '16 6:49:19 PM by Ramona122003

IndirectActiveTransport plays capoeira from Chicago (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Every rose has its thorn
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#36435: Mar 25th 2016 at 6:40:33 PM

The reincarnation process isn't supposed to be instant. I mean, for political purposes, people claim such and such is the reincarnation of last generation's such and such, but the process, particularly when it comes to cleansing bad kharma, is supposed to be lengthy. Freeza has a lot of bad kharma. Mahayana Buddhism, it's weird stuff.

Oh wait, Daimo Piccolo and Small Buu's souls were reborn quickly? Special circumstances.

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Ramona122003 Since: Jan, 2001
#36436: Mar 25th 2016 at 6:44:35 PM

Toriyama did call Kid Buu special since he was pure evil and was reborn quickly and King Piccolo cheated by placing his soul into his final child.

With that said, it seems the process can happen fairly quickly since Goku, at least in the Japanese text, says that he was sure Vegeta got wiped out in Hell when he saw him again. After about 16 years, Frieza should be further along.

And that still doesn't explain why Hell looks the way it does in RF if Dabura was sent to Heaven since Hell is supposed to be like the Demon Realm.

IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#36437: Mar 25th 2016 at 6:49:03 PM

Freeza is the most evil mofo in the entire series. I'd imagine that he's being denied reincarnation simply because he was that much of a dick that nobody, not even a system with no one overseeing it, wants him out of hell.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#36438: Mar 25th 2016 at 6:52:59 PM

...So the one year limit is only for mass revivals right?

What if someone who had already been reincarnated was wished back to life with the dragon balls?

Ramona122003 Since: Jan, 2001
#36439: Mar 25th 2016 at 6:53:47 PM

But they had no problem with Kid Buu being reborn despite him literally being pure evil with semi-intellgence? It may have been a favor to Goku with Buu, but as evil as Frieza is, he isn't pure evil. He's not going to blow up the universe for the sake of blowing up the universe like Buu.

If someone like Buu can be reborn into the Uub, I see no reason why Frieza can't be reborn into something less evil.

I am not sure about one year limit only being for mass revivals, because it seems to apply to a single person too. Like, the reason why Frieza was revive in pieces instead of a whole like other people killed is because he has been dead for over a year so the dragon can only bring him back in the exact condition he was in when he died.

edited 25th Mar '16 6:57:50 PM by Ramona122003

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#36440: Mar 25th 2016 at 6:56:49 PM

I think calling Kid Buu semi-intelligent is giving him too much credit. He cared for nothing but destruction, literally that was all there was to him.

Frieza had more to him than that and was still super evil.

IndirectActiveTransport plays capoeira from Chicago (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Every rose has its thorn
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#36441: Mar 25th 2016 at 7:00:33 PM

Using the rational part of my nervous system, reviving someone who had been reincarnated wouldn't work, unless the dragon is capable of creating copies of souls...maybe that's what the super dragon balls are for?

Alternatively, the dragon can call the soul of the person so long as they are not stronger than the creator, killing them but bringing back the person they once were?

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Ramona122003 Since: Jan, 2001
#36442: Mar 25th 2016 at 7:00:54 PM

Kid Buu is semi-intelligent. He learned the Supreme Kai's teleportation technique just by seeing it once and made the most creative used of his unique body. He also figure out that pinning Vegeta down meant Goku won't throw the Spirit Bomb. He had intelligence, but it was greatly limited.

I think it should be outright impossible for someone who has been reborn to be revived into their previous body. Maybe the Super Dragon Balls can do it since they supposedly have no limits. But the only reborn person who know of is Uub and Piccolo to an extent.

edited 25th Mar '16 7:03:43 PM by Ramona122003

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#36443: Mar 25th 2016 at 7:03:55 PM

Yes, but their bodies were never transported like Goku when he died.

You're just making that assumption though. Yamcha said that they met with God in heaven and he sent them to Kaio's planet. That's also when he re-made Chaozu's body so he could train with them.

Goku's body didn't disappear until God took it. So God collected the other bodies off-screen, because we never see them again.

That's not an inconsistency. Everything about it is consistent with how the afterlife mechanics work, we just don't see the exact moment God took their bodies. But we know God met with them and sent them to Kaio's off-screen, giving Chaozu a body in the process.

randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#36444: Mar 25th 2016 at 7:10:09 PM

I'd say it's odd how god still has his God powers even though he died too.

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#36445: Mar 25th 2016 at 7:12:25 PM

I find it kind of weird that Kami and Piccolo were still separated even after dying. I mean, what was he doing on his own I wonder?

edited 25th Mar '16 7:12:54 PM by LSBK

Ramona122003 Since: Jan, 2001
#36446: Mar 25th 2016 at 7:13:09 PM

True, but their bodies were still lying around after the battle with the Saiyans were done. Giving the time period, there was more than enough time for Kami to collect the bodies after the battle. It seems like the fight was over for what looked like more than an hour. And that still wouldn't explain why Piccolo was revived on King Kai's planet, but everyone else was teleported straight to Earth. It couldn't have been a Shenron thing since it was the Namekian dragon that revived Piccolo and the others.

Also, going by what happened after Goku died with Cell, Kami isn't needed to restore a body. It seems to happen automically if you're a good person, or Goku was just an exception since he was already judged to keep his body. But then how did King Kai and Bubbles get bodies?

edited 25th Mar '16 7:24:03 PM by Ramona122003

unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#36447: Mar 25th 2016 at 7:13:20 PM

...Come to think of it, yeah.

I mean. Apparently they had separate souls?

When did that happen?

King Kai outranks Kami. And Yenma. He could give Goku a body after Cell. And himself.

edited 25th Mar '16 7:14:13 PM by unnoun

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#36448: Mar 25th 2016 at 7:14:11 PM

You know, I'm just gonna assume that the whole thing with Tien, Yamcha and Chiaotzu is because Porunga is more powerful then Shenron, so he could both revive them and bring them back to Earth.

One Strip! One Strip!
Ramona122003 Since: Jan, 2001
#36449: Mar 25th 2016 at 7:15:59 PM

King Piccolo and Piccolo have the same soul. Unless you're asking why Kami and Piccolo have different souls. I assume it is much like Fat Buu and Kid Buu. After they separated, they became their own entities with their own souls.

I am willing to accept that too, except Porunga didn't bring Piccolo back to Earth when he was revived. He was still on King Kai's planet, just like Goku when he was revived.

But King Kai was dead himself at the time. Unless we say he was able to reconstruct his body himself, which I guess is possible.

edited 25th Mar '16 7:19:51 PM by Ramona122003

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#36450: Mar 25th 2016 at 7:18:19 PM

But that is explicitly not the case with Piccolo and Kami. Hence, if one of them dies so does the other. They are two halves of the same person.

edited 25th Mar '16 7:18:48 PM by LSBK


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