The type of thing you're being caught off guard by is what matters, isn't it?
Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.As I said, real life martial artists who have studied for decades can be caught off-guard or by surprised. I have seen it myself when I practice with black belts or upper belts. There is no perfect martial artist no matter how long you have been training. That is like saying a professional race car driver should never have a traffic accident since they drive cars for a living and should be absolutely perfect, which is BS.
Even Dragon Ball lampshades this with Whis talking about how he can move without thought and avoid any danger, and still steps into a pile of crap.
edited 11th Mar '16 5:19:32 PM by Ramona122003
I'm not sure that traffic problem is a good example, it can easily be someone else's fault you get into an accident. You can't be prepared for another person's inability to drive safely.
edited 11th Mar '16 5:23:09 PM by randomness4
Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.Just because people can make mistakes doesn't mean the RF mistakes were acceptable. They're still complete bullshit, flaws invented solely for the sake of the movies and Goku's goes completely against his previous character.
It wasn't even presented as a simple mistake he could have made. It was said to be a particular flaw he had, which is completely nonsense as the series has showed him to behave the exact opposite way.
I'm not going to comment on the possibility of Cabba winning through skill until we see how that actually happens. But saying they're not omnipotent just justify any excuse the writers pull from their ass.
On Tao Pai Pai, I'm with Arha. It couldn't be clearer that Tao Pai Pai had no intention in paying in cash, and there is no suggestion that he was insulted. If Tao Pai Pai were being insulted and acting accordingly, Toriyama would have written it in a way his target audience would understand.
The stuff about how the free assassination would be worth more than the clothes isn't relevant. It's a minimal amount of effort to him something he only offered to get out of payment.
Arha's summation of Red's reaction disproves the whole "Tao Pai Pai is generous" thing. It's a phony discount, either way he's charging so much that it doesn't even matter at half price. Not charging Red for Bora just makes sense when Tao just chose to do that.
Really all of Tao's practices can be compared to a business - discounting unreasonable things to prices that are still ridiculous to make them sound better, or offering free services that on paper seem like better value than what they're in exchange for, but really don't cost the business much.
How good you are at sensing someone has absolutely nothing to do with getting caught off guard. Sensing Ki isn't like an actual sense, it's more like a radar that you have to consciously be using, or else it's not on. From Goku telling the others to sense for Gohan's Ki before proclaiming him dead when Cell hit him into a mountain, to literally every single time someone is surrounded by smoke and presumed dead when they come out fine. Sensing is a technique that you turn on and off, not a unconscious sense that is constantly on, akin to hearing.
I'm actually on a third camp.
I'm on the camp that says that Tao Pai Pai killed that tailor because he was there. Tao Pai Pai could have just as easily walked out, and it's not like anybody could have stopped him. He just chose to get out of paying in the cruelest way possible because he's a complete asshole.
himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimariFunny, the flaws Goku showed in RF made perfect sense to me. Goku does have a habit of acting like a Smug Super whenever he gains a lot of power. It is something Sean and even Masako Nozawa talk about when discussing Goku's behavior in the movie.
One of the best examples I can think of is how he acted during the Ginyu Force fight. He was so certain of his power than he was caught off-guard when Ginyu switched bodies with him, something that wouldn't have happened if Goku had just taking out Ginyu instead of trying to show him mercy. And Goku is known for being too relaxed, something almost all his friends comments on.
Another examples is in Battle of Gods where Goku acted somewhat smug towards Beerus, thinking that Super Saiyan 3 was too much for him and offers to take it back to 2.
So saying that Goku's behavior has no basics and came out of nowhere in RF isn't really true. Also, it isn't the first time Goku got hurt because he relaxed his guard. During the 23rd tournament, Goku dropped his guard and got a hole blown in his shoulder by Piccolo. This is after he tanked an attack that leveled an island and only got minor burns.
edited 11th Mar '16 6:31:49 PM by Ramona122003
Funny you bring up the Ginyu Force fight, where he easily took them all down and didn't give Recoome a chance to attack them, then pointed out they left themselves too open. Ginyu's body change is not even a close example. That's completely new to Goku, and something he couldn't have expected - and Ginyu was capable of holding his own against Goku, who could only beat him with the Kaio-ken which is used in bursts. Ginyu did the switch immediately after Goku used the Kaio-ken, so it's not like Goku was dragging things out the entire time.
And you know what? It only worked once. Goku was able to fool Ginyu's body change twice after that, once he understood how it worked in order to get his body back and trap Ginyu in a frog.
It's a completely different situation to Goku being caught out by a generic attack and taking near fatal damage from it.
For the Battle of Gods example - that's being a cocky dick, still not about leaving himself open. And secondly, that's from Battle of Gods which hardly supports things being present in the original material.
The example with Piccolo is also completely different. He's being injured by someone actually in his weight class and it's the first time it happened to him, much earlier in his life.
edited 11th Mar '16 6:39:51 PM by Saiga
It really doesn't matter if he should had saw Ginyu's body switch technique coming. It wouldn't have happened in the first place if Goku took Ginyu seriously from the start and taking him out quickly instead of playing around and trying to spare him. Even more, if he hadn't let Jeice go, he would only had Ginyu to deal with, and Jeice managed to catch him by surprise. He did take out Recoome quickly, but after that he decided to screw around.
Ginyu also didn't body switch the moment the he saw Goku's power. Goku powered up, told him that he could become stronger, then tells him to leave. Ginyu even monologs about whether or not Goku is a Super Saiyan, so there was nothing immediate about it. If Goku wanted to, he could have used the Kaio-ken and disable Ginyu rather quickly since we know he can use the Kaio-ken up to ten without any ill effect just by how he fought Frieza.
And why would Goku be fooled again? He didn't even fight Ginyu again and Ginyu had no interest in him. By that point Goku knew not to underestimate him.
The fight with Piccolo really isn't different. Goku tanked a blast that leveled an island and Piccolo was left completely exhausted to the point that Goku beat the daylights out of him for several seconds before dropping him with a Kamahamaha. The very second he relaxed his guard, he got pierce in the shoulder by an opponent who nearly drained all his energy on one big attack that barely burned his skin.
edited 11th Mar '16 6:57:11 PM by Ramona122003
Except as I mentioned he wasn't playing around with Ginyu. He was being cautious. Going full power and rushing the guy isn't always the best strategy either. Letting Jheese go wasn't cocky, it was attempted mercy. Again, a separate issue, same with the reason he screwed around with Butta and Jheese before. He was making a point, and never dropped his guard while doing so as he easily took care of all of their attacks.
You really misunderstood what I mean about immediate. I am fully aware that Goku once more tells Ginyu to stand down, but I mean that Goku didn't use the Kaio-ken to actually fight (and potentially defeat) Ginyu. He made a point to Ginyu, and Ginyu did the switch before Goku could resume the fight.
Whiiiiich is exactly the problem with Goku now being fooled by really basic shit.
No Piccolo really is completely different just because Piccolo is in the same weight class as Goku. His other attacks could hurt Goku as we saw. You say he nearly drained all his energy to barely hurt Goku, but that's skewing your interpretation to support your point. The characters comment that he actually has a lot of energy left, enough to kill everybody there, so you're outright wrong about that.
edited 11th Mar '16 7:12:40 PM by Saiga
At least try to spell 'Kamehameha' correctly. I already have enough with people pronouncing it 'Kameamea'...
Also, to make Saiga's point more succint (is that even the right word?), Goku should not be underestimating opponents and getting caught off guard because he is long past the point where he learned the lessons to not do that.
You know, back when he was a goddamn kid.
edited 11th Mar '16 7:15:20 PM by IAmNotCreativeEnough
himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimariHe was cautious towards Ginyu to a point, but the moment he knew he was superior to Ginyu he didn't take him out. Instead, he stood there and tells Ginyu he has no chance before telling him to leave. He was certain that Ginyu was no real threat to him and saw no pressing need to defeat him, just like the other members of the Ginyu Force where he speeds around them before deciding to take one of them out and and trying to spare Jeice since he was no threat to him, which came back to bite him. Which is almost exactly like what happened with Frieza.
I remember on the Kanzenshuu's podcast Manga Review of Awesomeness, they had a person reading the Dragon Ball manga for the first time, along with two other people who read and knew the manga like the back of their hand. When they got the Ginyu Force part, the person who had never read the manga before called Goku a cocky SOB through most of the fight and called him getting his body jacked as a big 'serve you right' moment. The people who knew the manga mostly agreed, saying that Goku was being too full of himself. So, he did come off as a Smug Super since he could have ended things quick and not allowed Ginyu to steal his body.
I don't see how Goku not being fooled again by Ginyu proves a point, other than he learned not to underestimate Ginyu.
And again, Goku took a blast that leveled an island and it barely burnt his skin. How can Goku go from taking that and barely getting hurt to being dropped by a much weaker mouth beam from an exhausted opponent that not only harmed him, but pierced right through his body. Sorbet maybe much weaker than Goku, but the same principle applies. You lowered your guard, someone who is weaker than you can kill you. Piccolo was also badly exhausted. When Goku went on the offensive, Piccolo couldn't even fight back and got plummet.
edited 11th Mar '16 7:31:02 PM by Ramona122003
![]()
![]()
He didn't really do that when he was a kid either.
edited 11th Mar '16 7:33:33 PM by randomness4
Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.Goku did have some Smug Super moments as a kid, but he didn't generally lower his guard. But that is mostly because he believed everyone was super as a kid. He actually believed that Bulma could make a 20 foot jump.
edited 11th Mar '16 7:44:53 PM by Ramona122003
Only because you simplified it to "Goku shows mercy to an inferior opponent" and ignored all other context and details, including that the movie's flaw was never connected to mercy at all.
This whole paragraph was completely pointless and proves nothing. It's just one small group of fans' opinion, including one who does not know the series very well.
It should be pretty obvious - Goku left one opening, it was exploited, Goku immediately learned from it. Goku in Resurrection has it pointed out earlier in the film, in addition to having experienced it before, but doesn't learn from it when he comes across Freeza. Despite that being someone he's fought before and nothing about the situation being new to him.
And Piccolo can create blasts that destroy moons.
It's simple: you made up those parts about the mouth beam being weaker and Piccolo being so exhausted. After he gets back up a point is made that Piccolo still has a lot of strength left. And even then, the difference between Goku and Piccolo at his worst is miniscule compared to Sorbet and Goku as a fucking Super Saiyan Blue. It's not the same principle at all at that point. The fact that lowering a guard can make you open to one enemy does just instantly justify it making you open to EVERY enemy. The situations simply aren't the same, which is why one can work while the other is bullshit. It's really not that difficult to understand.
Piccolo got pummeled and then revealed he still had a lot of energy left, which was shown and directly stated. He could literally kill every other person present, so he's not far off Goku's level at that point.
It's still better in Super, since Goku had dropped to his base state when it happened, and he was shot through the back.
Also, you seem to forget Saiga that Toriyama is the one who wrote the script, meaning it was Toriyama who made Goku get taken out by that. Fight and complain all you want about it not making sense for Goku, but since Toriyama wrote it, it'd technically be a retcon on Goku's behavior.
edited 11th Mar '16 7:52:19 PM by Ssj3Gojira
Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!

They're not omnipotent though. And anyone can make mistakes.
And episode synopsis aren't "leaks".
edited 11th Mar '16 5:08:37 PM by Cortez