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Ramona122003 Since: Jan, 2001
#35551: Mar 10th 2016 at 5:06:23 PM

It depends. If Frost really is just a Card-Carrying Villain, there is no reason. There is a reason why this site has like a dozen different tropes about villains which can range from Complete Monster to being very sympathetic.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#35552: Mar 10th 2016 at 5:21:10 PM

You can have a reason for being evil without it being a good reason and you can be a villain without being evil.

IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#35553: Mar 10th 2016 at 5:41:32 PM

Depends on what you're saying when you say "reason for being evil". If what you mean by 'having a good reason' is 'Having an End Goal that would be considered by most to be a good thing', then you're defeating the point of being evil.

An Extremist isn't evil, they're extremists. They usually know that what they're doing is bad, but they think that the good they will do outweighs the evil that is their means of achieving said good.

On the other hand, evil does not care. Evil is selfish, it doesn't need to justify its actions to anyone but itself. Freeza doesn't need to say "Well, I'm taking over the universe in the bloodiest, most violent way I can so that everyone'll be afraid of me and then there'll be peace", because Freeza does not give a shit about the universe at large, Freeza wants to take over because that's what he wants, and screw the consequences.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#35554: Mar 10th 2016 at 6:09:45 PM

You can also be evil without having For the Evulz as your character motivation.

Eriorguez Since: Jun, 2009
#35555: Mar 10th 2016 at 6:16:41 PM

[up][up] Remember that there's that old proverb that said hell is full of well intentions, and also remember that the best villians in fiction are the ones that think they are doing the right thing.

Seeing good and evil as clear cut, objective and real things is not a very good model to work with. It is awfully limiting, and doesn't leave room for analysis.

Arha Since: Jan, 2010
#35556: Mar 10th 2016 at 6:22:34 PM

I don't think he's doing that though. He's defining evil as 'assholes who hurt others for their own benefit.' That's a reasonable definition, though maybe a little simple. I'm not sure I see the value in differentiating that so strongly from what you might call the crusader mindset of hurting others for what you consider to be the greater good, generally without a grounding in reality, consequences or at least perspective.

nomuru2d Gamer-turning-maker from Port Saint Lucie, FL Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Longing for Dulcinea
Gamer-turning-maker
#35557: Mar 10th 2016 at 6:22:51 PM

It seems that Toriyama generally has trouble writing villains as anything but For the Evulz. It even popped up in his old Sandland series.

Long live Cinematech. FC:0259-0435-4987
IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#35558: Mar 10th 2016 at 6:31:58 PM

@Arha

Well, not necessarily assholes. You can be a polite and charming gentleman while being an absolute monster in human skin, but you pretty much hit the nail on the head otherwise.

It really comes down to a very simple "Selfishness VS Selflessness" for me.

[up]Let's see, from Dragon Ball alone...

Pilaf wanted to rule the world.

Tao Pai Pai wanted money.

Commander Red wanted to be tall.

Adjutant Black wanted to rule over the world.

Piccolo wanted to cause as much pain and misery to the peoples of Earth as possible.

Piccolo Jr. wanted to kill Goku and then rule the world.

Raditz wanted to survive and thrive, mostly.

Vegeta wanted to kill Freeza.

Freeza was full on For the Evulz.

Doctor Gero wanted revenge on Goku and possibly to take over the world.

17 and 18 were just teenagers shitting around.

Cell just wanted to become perfect and then didn't really have much else in mind.

Majin Buu was just doing the only thing it knows - blowing shit up - and then when he made a friend that told him that was bad he stopped and instead seems to just want to live his life with Mr. Satan.

Super Buu just wanted to fight, a lot, and blow shit up.

Kid Buu literally only knows to blow shit up and then sleep, occasionally absorbing a strong fighter if it comes across one.

Beerus wanted pudding.

Freeza was out for revenge.

Frost seems to be in it for personal glory.

So... Of all of those, only one was in it For the Evulz.

edited 10th Mar '16 6:37:16 PM by IAmNotCreativeEnough

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
Ramona122003 Since: Jan, 2001
#35559: Mar 10th 2016 at 6:53:48 PM

I don't think Toriyama has problems writing villains who aren't evil for evil sake. He did write Beerus and Champa, who who are antagonists, but are quite complex and morally grey. Vados is shady and manipulative, but she isn't evil. I would say Fat Buu is an example of someone who started out as evil, but was manipulative by others so he only knew how to kill and destroy. Androids 16, 17, and 18 were antagonists who weren't really evil at all and they were going to be the primary villains, until Toriyama's former editor complained about them just being punks and we got Cell.

It only seems Toriyama can't write complex or only Card Carrying Villains because the most memorable villain are Complete Monsters like Frieza, Cell, and Super/Kid Buu.

edited 10th Mar '16 6:59:52 PM by Ramona122003

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#35560: Mar 10th 2016 at 6:55:19 PM

Kid Buu was undeniably For the Evulz. Freeza even had goals aside from 'do bad': he wanted the Dragon Balls to make him immortal and he wanted money by selling genocided planets.

Ramona122003 Since: Jan, 2001
#35561: Mar 10th 2016 at 6:59:06 PM

Cell also did things For the Evulz. He held the Cell Games not only to test himself against the greatest on Earth, but to also enjoy the look of terror on people's faces once he kills all their strongest fighter. He then planned to hunt down and kill everyone on Earth one-by-one once he wins the Cell Games, all to see the look of terror on people's faces before they died.

Super Buu was a mixture of Blood Knight and For the Evulz since he took way too much pleasure beating the crud out of Gohan, all just to used him as a test subject.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#35562: Mar 10th 2016 at 7:00:57 PM

King Piccolo was also undeniably For the Evulz.

Ramona122003 Since: Jan, 2001
#35563: Mar 10th 2016 at 7:08:21 PM

I would say Tao is also in it for the For the Evulz to an extent. He killed Bora for no particularly reason when he showed that Bora was no threat to him. He also killed the tailor whose only crime was to ask to be paid for doing a week's worth of work in three days.

I am mixed on Kid Buu being for the For the Evulz since he was closed to a mindless beast than someone who could comprehend his actions and consequences.

edited 10th Mar '16 7:23:26 PM by Ramona122003

RJ-19-CLOVIS-93 from New Zealand (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#35564: Mar 10th 2016 at 8:43:03 PM

Another Frost topic: in general, the strong of Dragonball are easily swayed to villainy. Almost every single villain encountered is inherently powerful, and almost every hero had to work for it(a criticism on elitism, perhaps?). "Supposedly" Frieza and his father are terrible people because super-strong members of his race are naturally inclined towards evil. However, I don't think it's some quirk of his species, but rather than anyone naturally, abnormally strong is naturally inclined towards evil. Sure, they are some exceptions, but they're in the minority.

The real question is why Frost and Frieza have different attitudes towards their sociopathic power-lust. And I think I've got a good idea on how: from what is implied of Frieza's background, it seems he was very spoiled and his father(who while nearly not as bad, is still a very evil man) just let him. What if Frost is different because he had a much stricter upbringing? His father wasn't a super-villain, and didn't raise him in luxury. Instead of just having to get what he wanted, Frost has to put on a mask, and manipulate others. He couldn't rule by fear, so instead he rules by a veneer of charm. He's not childish, so he's cold-blooded instead of an out-and-out psycho like Frieza.

Cell is kind of complicated in how For the Evulz he was. For the bulk of his existence, he was focused on one thing and one thing only: completion. Whenever he drinks people, there was no expression on his face but cold satisfaction. He didn't get any real joy out of painfully cannibalizing people, it's just what he's designed to do. When he's perfect, he delves into it; he announces he wants to see the terror on people's faces, as he hunts them down one by one. At the same time, he's focused on his own perfection, with everything he does as throwing in people's face that he's better than them.

In my eyes, Imperfect Cell wasn't so much immoral as completely amoral. He kills to complete himself. In his eyes, he's not doing anything evil, just something productive. And to play devil's advocate, I honestly can't blame him; he was raised in isolation, with the only influence telling him to be a monster. He's if Frankenstein's Monster was made to be a monster. He doesn't choose to not Heel–Face Turn, he simply is incapable of fathoming another path.

In my opinion, he crossed the Moral Event Horizon as Perfect Cell because he's actively being crueler than he needs to be. Where he just to conquer the world like his master probably intended, or ensure he stays the ultimate life-form, that would be cold and objectively evil, but understandable for him to do. But he actively decides to humiliate and break people, simply because of arrogant sadism. Cell didn't choose to be evil, but he did choose to be even more of a monster than his creator intended.

edited 10th Mar '16 9:10:05 PM by RJ-19-CLOVIS-93

IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#35565: Mar 11th 2016 at 2:18:25 AM

Of course every villain is For the Evulz if you just say they are and completely ignore what's actually going on...

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
Rinsankajugin Since: Feb, 2012
#35566: Mar 11th 2016 at 2:26:22 AM

Apparently God Mission 7 has a legit (albeit short) story mode with dialogue.

This story mission seems to be a sequel/prequel to Xenoverse's story, or at least the start of one.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#35567: Mar 11th 2016 at 7:26:07 AM

Tao Pai Pai wanted money.

More specifically, Tao Pai Pai was being paid to provide a service he's built his career on. He was also having a half-off sale to celebrate 20 years of assassination, so it wasn't just about money. He's made a living doing what he loves and loving what he does.

Raditz wanted to survive and thrive, mostly.

Vegeta wanted to kill Freeza.

Nappa wanted to resurrect Raditz but was subservient to Vegeta.

Freeza was full on For the Evulz.

Frieza wanted immortality.

Cell also did things For the Evulz. He held the Cell Games not only to test himself against the greatest on Earth, but to also enjoy the look of terror on people's faces once he kills all their strongest fighter. He then planned to hunt down and kill everyone on Earth one-by-one once he wins the Cell Games, all to see the look of terror on people's faces before they died.

I agree with this. Cell ran out of character motivation after he achieved his Perfect Form. He'd won, gotten everything he wanted, and didn't really have anywhere to go from there. But he still hadn't been beaten yet, so he went out of his way to contrive excuses to still be the bad guy by shifting to pointless cruelty and threats of large-scale destruction without any purpose behind them.

King Piccolo was also undeniably For the Evulz.

He's the physical embodiment of Evil doing things that are Evil for pointless, Evil reasons. How can that NOT be considered For the Evulz?

I would say Tao is also in it for the For the Evulz to an extent. He killed Bora for no particularly reason when he showed that Bora was no threat to him. He also killed the tailor whose only crime was to ask to be paid for doing a week's worth of work in three days.

Bora was standing between him and Goku holding a spear, intending to fight him to protect Goku. That's not without reason.

Killing the tailor, however, was definitely pointlessly evil. As I said above, he does what he loves and loves what he does, and both of those things are "killing people".

  • Tao killed General Blue to prove his strength to his employer, after being requested to do so.
  • Tao attempted to kill Goku for a paycheck.
  • Tao killed Bora because he was defending Goku.
  • Tao killed the tailor because...no reason, really. He just felt like it.

I would only consider the last bullet point here to be For the Evulz.

edited 11th Mar '16 7:27:54 AM by TobiasDrake

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Ikedatakeshi Baby dango from singapore Since: Nov, 2015 Relationship Status: Singularity
Baby dango
#35568: Mar 11th 2016 at 7:53:12 AM

[up]I thought that For the Evulz mean that they do evil things because those things are considered evil. Doing things just because other people find it evil, not due to greed, sadistic amusement, narcissism, bloodlust and etc. Killing someone because you felt like it feels more like It Amused Me.

Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#35569: Mar 11th 2016 at 8:14:37 AM

[up] You're right.

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TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#35570: Mar 11th 2016 at 8:26:28 AM

It's not entirely clear what Tao Pai Pai's thought process was with the tailor.

  • Tao goes to the tailor and wants his clothes to be fixed. He insists on the tailor working overnight to get it done in three days.
  • Three days later, he picks up his clothes.
  • The tailor requests payment for his rush work, and Tao offers him a compensated hit. As reimbursement, Tao will kill any one person of the tailor's choice.
  • The tailor doesn't want anyone dead and refuses the free assassination.
  • Tao kills the tailor and leaves.

It's not really It Amused Me because he doesn't indicate that he derives any sense of satisfaction from the deed. It's not about breaking up the tedium or monotony of life. It's just a plainly evil act done for no apparent reason.

edited 11th Mar '16 8:29:48 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#35571: Mar 11th 2016 at 8:30:49 AM

I think I see Tao's logic. He was offering a "free" assassination but the tailor didn't want anyone killed. Tao felt that it would be irresponsible and a bad example to not pay for services rendered so he decided to use the tailor's "free" assassination to kill the tailor.

Let the joy of love give you an answer! Check out my book!
Ikedatakeshi Baby dango from singapore Since: Nov, 2015 Relationship Status: Singularity
Baby dango
#35572: Mar 11th 2016 at 8:38:18 AM

[up][up]But For the Evulz has a reason, which is in the name itself. Nobody with a conscious mind will do things without reason.

Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#35573: Mar 11th 2016 at 8:40:56 AM

I direct you to the page quote for that trope.

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HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#35574: Mar 11th 2016 at 8:42:06 AM

Did it ever occur to you that Tao just didn't want to pay for his clothes?

As a cheapskate myself, if I could get off without having to pay for something, I'd do it. Not necessarily with murder, but I'm not Tao.

The dude might have also inadvertently insulted Tao by not taking the free assassination either.

One Strip! One Strip!
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#35575: Mar 11th 2016 at 8:44:09 AM

It Amused Me

This is the motivation of an amoral character seeking... well, amusement. It's not that they enjoy being good or evil—they may not know or care about the difference—but they do whatever they feel like without regard for others. They don't need a motivation or justification for doing anything beyond the amusement of the act itself. As a result they almost inevitably do things that are dickish, maybe even cruel, but generally not outright evil. This same character will lead you into a trap, fight you to the death...and then stop on the brink of killing you to laugh and say "Are you all right?" They won't kill the hero, because they find their attempts to save the day amusing, or are intrigued by the sheer selflessness of their thinking. They may help the hero, they may help the villain, they may do both at once or screw over both at once. They are rarely if ever a driving force behind a story, but they nonetheless play a significant role. And why do they do all this? Why do they switch sides so often? Why are they working below the Big Bad when they're just as powerful and intelligent as they are, if not more? Why did they make out with the hero of the same gender?

Because it was fun. They'd do just about anything for a lark, really.

Please note, this is different from For the Evulz. While a character who does commits evil acts For the Evulz does so because they like seeing other people suffering, if this character does evil things it is only because they shatter the boredom of everyday life—they're not out to hurt anyone per se, but they don't care (much) if they do.

For the Evulz

Most villains have logical motivations for (morally) reprehensible actions and intentions. Ambition, zeal, greed, love, hatred, revenge, a troubled childhood, the desire for utopia and other warped "ideals" can all drive people to evil in ways that we understand and may be familiar with. If a villain's motivations can just be understood, they can be reasoned with — sometimes.

On the other hand, some villains cannot be reasoned with because there is nothing reasonable about their reasons for acting... well, evil. Unlike the amoral motivation we call It Amused Me, which may lead to evil in the pursuit of (attachment-free) amusement, someone whose motivation is For The Evulz knows and cares about the morality of their actions — insofar as they choose to do evil, and delight in doing so. To them, evil is not a bad means to a good end or even a bad means to an evil end; to them, evil is the means and the end, their motivation and their justification.

What this boils down to is this question: when Tao killed the tailor, which of the following is true:

  • Tao was just having some amoral fun. The tailor died not because Tao particularly wanted him to die, but because he just happened to be in the way of Tao's general enjoyment.
  • Tao killed the tailor for pointlessly evil reasons just to be pointlessly evil.

My take is the second option.

[up] Or that third one, in which it is neither It Amused Me nor For the Evulz. That works too.

edited 11th Mar '16 8:45:49 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.

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