He doesn't know how strong Vegeta is and he's most likely underestimating him. Remember, Champa thinks Goku was their ace fighter (for some reason, since why would you have your best go first). He probably don't think Vegeta can transform like Goku since it was so out there for Cabba.
Also, depending on how true and accurate the manga is on this, Vados claims that Frost is their strongest fighter, or at least the strongest in terms of hand-to-hand combat.
The relationship between Champa and Beerus is more complex than one being the evil twin. They are both dicks in their own way, but they both also have a sort of moral code. Beerus was disgusted too when he learned about Frost's true nature, calling him no different than Frieza, and he hates Frieza. In the movie, he wanted to kill him, calling him a 'no good' guy. Beerus also wanted good people on his team, and trusted Vegeta and Goku not to pick Jerkasses
edited 8th Mar '16 7:14:32 AM by Ramona122003
Guys, I'd like to remind you that Beerus is 100% a cat. Not just in body but in mind in spirit. He's a dick but that doesn't necessarily mean he's evil.
Let the joy of love give you an answer! Check out my book!Well I, for one, am happy Frost is not the Good Counterpart everyone was so willing to embrace him as. The fact is he isn't identical to Freeza, so him being "good" kind of rubbed me the wrong way. It implies there is something about Freeza's specific genetic composition that makes him evil. Even if does turn out to be a general trait of these kinds of mutants, that's still better than it being genetically unique to Freeza and his father.
Not to mention Frost introduced himself as "Emperor". Now if you come from a country that is/was ruled by one of those, please don't take it personally but emperor usually translates into "I subjugate people for my own gain or the gain of a small minority of which I belong with force and or alleged benefits."
Sure, emperor superhero would have been something unique, but there's reason that is such a rare combination.
Buldogue's lawyerWhat? No, it doesn't. It implies that Frieza being evil is a choice, not a product of his mutant genetics. That he was not born evil but became that way through a combination of upbringing and personal choices. The idea that Frieza, no matter the universe, could never not be evil suggests that a person's position on the moral compass is encoded in their genes; that a person is born either good or evil and could never have been anything else.
Vegeta's a walking contradiction of that entire concept. So is Piccolo, who is literally the reincarnation of distilled absolute evil. So is Tien, who made a choice to turn his back on his assassin dreams, and Majin Buu, an Eldritch Horror who learned a better way through friendship forged with Mr. Satan. Dragon Ball is big on the idea that evil is a choice and people can choose to walk away from it.
Frieza didn't, but not because he can't. His refusal of redemption was never about being physically incapable of ever knowing good. He was never depicted as anything less than a self-aware, intelligent being, and there's nothing about his character that supposes he should be less capable of good than the embodiment of all evil. He rejected redemption because he didn't want it. That was a choice.
edited 8th Mar '16 7:41:25 AM by TobiasDrake
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.I kind of felt the same way. It always struck me as a little odd that Frost is called the 'Emperor of the Sixth Universe', similar to how Frieza all but ruled his universe, yet he was considered a good and benevolent ruler. In fiction The Empire is usually not a good place, even when the people in power try to act somewhat good.
I thought what would happened is that we learned that Frost wasn't evil, but wasn't very good either. I thought he was going to be someone who brought peace to his universe at gun point kind of like Pain from Naruto. Having more morally ambiguous characters like Beerus, Champa, and Vados to an extent are welcome since most of the villains in the series are Card Carrying Villains.
Actually there is a different between Frieza, and Tien, Piccolo, and Vegeta. Tien was someone who was being led astray by his master and he had inner good that Master Roshi picked up on. After being reborn, Piccolo was nowhere near as bad as his father. His father wanted to genocide all the humans while he actually wanted to rule over them, which is why he wanted to stop the Saiyans among other reasons. Vegeta was raised by Frieza, which is why he was cold-blooded even by Saiyans' standards. The Saiyans themselves are blood-thirsty, but do have social standards and codes.
Toriyama has gone on record saying that the reason why Frieza and King Cold are so cruel is because of their genetics. It isn't their background like the other reformed villains, they are literally born sociopaths. So Frieza and his family are evil on a genetic level, not just choice.
edited 8th Mar '16 7:53:38 AM by Ramona122003
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Loyalist weakling!
Frost is different than Freeza and is evil in a different way than Freeza was/is, which is much more preferable to Frost is different than Freeza and therefor, good where Freeza is evil. If they were going to do the universal counterpartbut this one is good, I'd have rather they just went with an outright Palette Swap(at least until he started going beyond his true form, since there is no reason Frost should have a golden form if he was good.)
If I'm doing Freeza's alternate universe good counterpart, I'm making him just like Freeza. same origin, maybe even same color and definitely the same face(as Toriyama can only draw seven of them anyway). He would instead be physically distinguishable by his clothing. The saiyan armor is supposed to be one size fits all, Vegeta kept it on as a werewolf monkey, Freeza had no good reason to shed it, so I'd have Frost keep his but give his a different design, one more reflective of his different character.
edited 8th Mar '16 7:57:04 AM by IndirectActiveTransport
Buldogue's lawyerI admit Frost's methods do differentiate him from Frieza. Sure he's still evil, but a different flavour of evil.
He's also more willing recognize when he's outmatched and cheat.
Come to think of it, the way they handle losing is different as well. Frieza refused to recognize he was outmatched and kept pushing for a fight he had no chance of winning. Frost went in with a back-up plan ahead of time, which meant he was aware he could potentially lose.
Then again, Frieza (at least at the time) had far less to lose, while Frost needed Champa's help, so maybe it was their situation that made him decide to cover his bases.
I still say Good Frost would have been more interesting, though I still have to give him props for playing everyone like chumps.
On a final note, why do I feel like Jaco would be pretty strong if he could use Ki?
One Strip! One Strip!Toriyama has gone on record saying that the reason why Frieza and King Cold are so cruel is because of their genetics. It isn't their background like the other reformed villains, they are literally born sociopaths. So Frieza and his family are evil on a genetic level, not just choice.
Yes, that is what Toriyama's said, but that doesn't make it less disappointing. What makes characters interest are motivations, development, growth. The journey that made them who they are today and the journey that will make them who they'll become tomorrow.
"He's evil because shut up, he just IS, he was born evil and doesn't need a reason," is a boring character. Piccolo Daimao is a boring character. Pure Buu is a boring character. These characters make no pretense of being anything but a physical challenge for the hero to overcome. They're flat, one-dimensional, and exist solely to be defeated.
Contrast Beerus, the God of Destruction, who is full of life and personality because destroying worlds is a choice he makes, rather than an inherent role he's bound to by nature of existence. Even as a planet-killing madman, he's a three-dimensional character with a wealth of potential and a welcome addition to the cast.
Frieza has all the opportunity in the world to be a character like Beerus. He has a perfectly good explanation for why he's an irredeemable monster - he embodies the essence of every child who's ever thrown a tantrum in a store while their parents stood by and did nothing. He's so powerful by merit of birth that he's never had to learn to deal with disappointment or to make social connections.
If he wants something, he gets it. If he's mad at someone, they die. The word "no" does not exist in his world because nothing is denied to him, because nothing he wants can be refused. In essence, he's playing the game of life with cheat codes and it's breaking his immersion; he doesn't live in a universe populated by people, he lives in a universe populated by cardboard cutouts that break into a million pieces at the slightest provocation.
This is the kind of character Frieza could be. The spoiled, elitist brat who grew up in a universe where his Superpower Lottery abilities automatically won him the Asskicking Equals Authority contest at an early age and consequentially the only moral compass he ever developed was "Obeying Frieza is good, refusing him is suicide." Who has never definitively been denied anything until immortality slipped through his grasp, and whose rage broke upon the first absolute "No" he's ever known.
But Toriyama prefers to keep pushing the idea that he's just evil because he is. He's got the Evil Gene. Don't think about it too hard, he's not really a character at all.
edited 8th Mar '16 8:48:57 AM by TobiasDrake
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.I disagree. King Piccolo was far from boring. What made his interesting even now is that he was a smart villains who not only out-powered his opponents, but outsmarted them. Unlike every villains, except Super and Kid Buu, he never grabbed the Villain Ball and when his children was unable to do something, he got off his butt and did it himself. He didn't need deep motives or shades of gray. He was a great Card-Carrying Villain.
Kid Buu is interesting because for the first time in the series we had a villain who had none of the classical villain failings. He didn't care about being the strongest in the universe, ruling anything, being sadistic as possible because he could, or pride. He was literally a killing machine that couldn't be reason with, understood, or taking advantage of. He was an Eldritch Abomination and unlike any villain Goku had ever fought, which is why he was a better end villain than Super Buu who was a mixture of Frieza and Cell. Kid Buu was more like a force of nature than flesh and blood opponent.
What you said is interesting, and Frieza is all those things. He is a spoiled little brat who always got his way because he won the Superpower Lottery and knew it. Without training a day in his life, he was the strongest in the universe by default. The only people stronger than him were the Top Gods and a legendary Eldritch Abomination. He showed his brattiness by the way he pushed his men around, did mass genocide without caring about the long term consequences, and had tantrums when things didn't go his way. RF shows how spoiled he is further by having him rush to Earth as soon as he became Golden Frieza, instead of taking the time to master it and literally lose by making the same mistakes that cost him the fight on Namek. This makes Frieza an interesting villain because all his failings are self-inflicted. I didn't what his spoil nature to be an excuse for being evil. I wanted it to be a reason why he isn't a very effective villain in the grand scheme of things despite all his power and ruthlessness. Frieza is the classic Card-Carrying Villain of the franchise. He is evil because he is evil like the Joker, and the audience love him for it. When you start piling on excuses why he's like that, it takes away from a character like Frieza. To me, Frieza should remain an irredeemable Jerkass because that is who is.
The other characters you named are interesting because they are more ambiguous and I loved them for it. That doesn't mean I hate the other villains who are evil and loving it. There is a reason why Dragon Ball has some of the most memorable villains in Shounen despite their lack of depth.
I agree that Frieza should remain an irredeemable Jerkass because that is who he is, but that's my point: it should be about who he is, not what he is. "His Evil Gene makes him evil" makes it about what he is. It takes away his initiative in his own malice. It takes away his responsibility in his identity. It turns evil into something that he was just saddled with at birth instead of something he chose. It makes him pitiable instead of detestable, because it means it's not his fault; anyone would be evil if they were born with the Evil Gene.
That's what makes Piccolo such a shallow villain: because, when you get right down to it, he's blameless in his own terrible actions. He lacks free will; as the physical embodiment of evil, he could never have chosen a better path. He can't not be a murderous lunatic, so there's a limit to how much one can really hold it against him that he is. Prior to his reincarnation, he's exactly what God made him; nothing more and nothing less.
Without the Evil Gene nonsense, Frieza manages to be more menacing and more sinister than the physical embodiment of evil and does so entirely of his own free will. He chooses to be more monstrous than the setting's Devil figure, and that's of more value as a character than a thousand mindless agents of evil.
edited 8th Mar '16 10:07:23 AM by TobiasDrake
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.I have to disagree again. Piccolo Jr is the same evil from Kami and he became a good person by choice. King Piccolo despite being born from Kami's evil, he freely chose and enjoyed being a dick. Piccolo rejected that side of himself. This shows that despite one's birth you still have a choice to be good even if you are the incarnation of pure evil.
I see nothing wrong with Frieza being a born sociopath because the fact of the matter is, some people are born sociopaths. However, despite popular belief, most don't go on to be murderers. Frieza may have been born with the 'evil' gene, but he freely chose to embrace and nurture his evil nature, just as Cell chose to be evil despite having Goku's genes within him. The evil gene only made Frieza more preset to be evil, doesn't mean he had to be evil, just like Piccolo was literally born pure evil, and he chose to become a good person.
He almost beat Frost because he fought smart. He fully charged the Special Beam Cannon for the first time since Raditz, uses his multiform, and even his antenna beam attack for the first time since the 23rd tournament. He control the entire match because Frost underestimated him, along with everyone else. He was way weaker than Frost and he used that to play Frost like a fiddle.
Frieza and his clan has gone the way of the Uchiha back in 2014 when Toriyama said that Frieza and his father were powerful and cruel because they were mutants. However, being preset to be evil is hardly an excuse for one's choices. Piccolo was literally born as pure evil, yet he decided to become a good person. When you have the devil himself becoming redeem, there is really no excuse for someone like Frieza to act the way he did except he enjoyed being a bastard.
edited 8th Mar '16 10:37:15 AM by Ramona122003
Frieza himself being genetically predisposed to evil is one thing but the idea that everyone universe's "Frieza" has to be because Frieza can't not be evil seems a bit off to me.
@Ramona, I don't know why you're arguing that Jr. was as evil as Daimaou when just the other day you said the opposite. Which was apparently true, if nothing else Jr. was more restrained than Daimaou.
The other day I said that Piccolo Jr didn't act as evil as his father. There is never a reason why that is, except he just isn't. Maybe he was born less evil for some reason, but neither Goku or Kami says this at the tournament since they both say he is King Piccolo reborn. If he has the same soul and motives as King Piccolo, the only other reason why he doesn't act as evil is because he chose not to. Maybe being forced to grow up again mellow him somehow and he got infected by humanity, which made him less evil. My point, however, was that Piccolo was far more pre-depose to being evil than Frieza ever was.
edited 8th Mar '16 10:42:45 AM by Ramona122003
At the 23rd tournament, no one said he was less evil. Everyone said he was the Demon King reborn, which is why Kami wanted to kill him and everyone freaked out when Goku spared him. It was only after the incident with Raditz that Kami notes that Piccolo is indeed less evil and Gohan tells Piccolo that his father told him that he isn't as evil as his father, just grumpy. I can easily see Goku reaching that conclusion since Piccolo in those five years never attacked him, or used his family against him. He also didn't attack citizens or did any other minion evils while he trained himself. He just stayed put.
However, it's clear that despite everyone saying he was still the same nasty Piccolo at the tournament, he wasn't as evil as his father. Either A, he wasn't reborn as evil, or B, he chose not to be as evil. We can argue what happened, but my original point is that Piccolo was literally reborn as the incarnation of Kami's evil. Even if he was reborn 80% evil instead of 100%, he was still born evil, yet he chose to become good. Making the whole, Frieza was born evil and had no choice, fall flat since I doubt even Frieza was born 100% pure evil. His genes made it likely that he would become evil, but he freely chose it and enjoyed every second of it.
edited 8th Mar '16 10:52:55 AM by Ramona122003
The point I think you're missing is that because he wasn't as evil to begin with becoming good was an option in the first place. The original did not have that option literally being entirely evil.
So arguing that even an incarnation of pure evil can choose to be good falls flat here. He wasn't pure evil when it happened.
Edit: And we have no reason to believe he made a choice to be less evil. Until Raditz arrived he was still planning on taking over the world, and well into his training with Gohan he was planning to use him to further his ambitions when the stuff when the Saiyans was over. Even he didn't understand why he saved Gohan. No choice was made. That 20% potential for good means a whole lot when before there was a 0% chance.
edited 8th Mar '16 10:57:07 AM by LSBK
Thing is, we don't know how evil Piccolo was when he was reborn. Kami called Piccolo Jr pure evil at the 23rd tournament. Goku even agreed that he was pure evil and there was nothing redeemable about him. His actions suggests that he wasn't pure evil, but all the characters (including the person who created the original King Piccolo) said he was purely evil. So either everyone exaggerated, which is possible, or Piccolo really was pure evil, but simply didn't act on his impulses. The definition of pure evil in Dragon Ball is weird since if King Piccolo really was pure evil, he should have acted like Kid Buu and be a mindless entity of destruction.
And Kami himself didn't really act purely good either. He was a trickster, mischievous, and did some things that no one would call saintly, which you would expect from someone who is literally all good. Maybe neither Kami or Piccolo are as pure as they say they are.
I never said he wasn't planning to take over the world. I just said during those five years of peace he literally did nothing. Goku had a family he could take advantage of, but never acted on it. He also brag to Raditz about Goku's revival, which he could have prevented by just simply taking the Dragon Ball Gohan had on his hat. He could have killed Raditz and Goku, and didn't have to worry about Goku coming back since he had one of the Dragon Balls within his sight. He could have done like his father did and swallowed it, making it impossible for anyone to bring back Goku unless they can kill him. So him saying that Goku can be revived to Raditz is a little strange.
Also, he made a choice to save Gohan. He only says it was pathetic that the Demon King dies saving a child, not that he didn't understand why he did it.
edited 8th Mar '16 11:08:39 AM by Ramona122003

He'll forgive Frost for cheating...if he beats Vegeta, which he can only do by cheating?
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