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VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#35226: Mar 6th 2016 at 10:15:24 AM

I don't think either "deserves" the chance to beat Freeza. Piccolo far less so than Vegeta.

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#35227: Mar 6th 2016 at 10:19:19 AM

There's also that. We can argue about who it would be more cathartic for more thematically appropriate to take Frieza down but generally things like that really shouldn't be thought of as "Who most deserves to take down the evil tyrant?" That the evil tyrant gets taken out is ultimately much more important than who actually does it.

Ramona122003 Since: Jan, 2001
#35228: Mar 6th 2016 at 10:23:15 AM

Bad Boss or not, Vegeta was still a mass-murderer who killed a village of Namekian elders and children with a big grin on his face and laughed about how they weren't revived by the Dragon Balls since he wasn't one of Frieza's men. So him fighting Frieza to 'avenge' the Saiyans falls flat, especially when he says he doesn't really care about his race, just that Frieza used him.

My point about Piccolo is that it would have been poetic for him to beat Frost in his true form since he was killed by Frieza in his first form. I enjoy irony.

edited 6th Mar '16 10:24:24 AM by Ramona122003

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#35229: Mar 6th 2016 at 10:26:02 AM

You do realize he's a different person now than he was then right? And I'm pretty sure his last tearful confession to Goku was supposed to show that the "I don't care about the others Saiyans" bit was a lie he was telling himself.

And I don't really see how that's poetic, Frieza was never the arch/iconic enemy he was for the likes of Vegeta and Goku. But differences of opinion and all. Whatever happens happens and then we're free to praise or complain about it as we like.

edited 6th Mar '16 10:28:36 AM by LSBK

Ramona122003 Since: Jan, 2001
#35230: Mar 6th 2016 at 10:37:40 AM

He's ironic and a rival to Goku, not Vegeta. Frieza couldn't give two shits about him.

And Vegeta really doesn't care for the Saiyans. If he did, he would have at least consider reviving Raditz and wouldn't have killed Nappa for getting hurt. When Frieza bragged about killing his father, he dismissed him by saying he surpass him long ago. Him begging Goku to beat Frieza was more out of his ruined pride and Frieza's betrayal.

Vegeta's death to Frieza is tragic, but he was still an Asshole Victim. A murderer killing another murderer.

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#35231: Mar 6th 2016 at 10:40:49 AM

Honestly, if you're going to go "Vegeta's was asshole so he doesn't 'deserve' this" regardless of how he is now Piccolo also used to be a pretty big asshole too. It get what you're saying but it just doesn't really hold up.

More to the point, I don't think most people would find it satisfying on the basis you're claiming. Regardless of how Frieza felt about him Vegeta cared a lot, in away that Piccolo has never been shown to.

Again, though, not really that big a deal.

edited 6th Mar '16 10:48:14 AM by LSBK

Lionheart0 Since: Oct, 2009 Relationship Status: I'm just a hunk-a, hunk-a burnin' love
#35232: Mar 6th 2016 at 10:45:59 AM

Piccolo's race also came back. And he didn't really have that strong a connection to them.

Makes me wonder why Vegeta has never wished his people back to life.

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#35233: Mar 6th 2016 at 10:46:20 AM

More to the point, I don't most people would find it satisfying on the basis you're making.

This. Piccolo fans would only care about Piccolo getting a win, not about any supposed irony.

Ramona122003 Since: Jan, 2001
#35234: Mar 6th 2016 at 10:46:44 AM

The only person Piccolo Jr killed was Goku, Raditz, and a Sabiman. After he was reborn he was never as evil as King Piccolo. Even then Piccolo died saving Gohan and went to Namek to help him as well as avenge his race. You can't compare Piccolo to Vegeta who was still an unrepented murderer.

And Vegeta didn't really care about Frieza either. He only wanted to fight him for fun. When Goku offered him to fight, he passed it up.

I only want Frost to lose to Piccolo because of the irony Super presented. Having Vegeta do is very meh to me. It isn't about racking kills.

edited 6th Mar '16 10:50:34 AM by Ramona122003

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#35235: Mar 6th 2016 at 10:47:25 AM

I don't care what it ls, I'm just enjoying the salt from Piccolo fans.

See, while a lot of fans likely deserve this, I think this attitude of it pisses off the annoying fans, and therefore it's a good thing (which I admit, I've likely done a few times myself) is just as bad as the it's not what I wanted, and therefore it's bad attitude of those very fans you hate.

Saiga: Yeah, I was thinking the same thing. Sure is 'clever' to make a twist by repeating something you've done over and over and making the story more boring as a result when you actually had an interesting situation you could have explored.

Exactly! He had something great here, and instead he threw it away for a complete untwist. Why? Just to troll the fans? Because that's not good enough. Sometimes, you have to subvert yourself, and if that means doing what people actually expect (cause it's the last thing they would expect), THEN FUCKING DO IT!!!!!

As for who should take out Frost, I see arguments for both. Piccolo was more than strong enough, and when you think about it, how many canon victories does he really have?

Lost to Goku, only beat Raditz with Goku's help, lost to Nappa, was beating Gero, but never finished him, lost to 17 and 18, should have beat imperfect Cell, but never got the chance to finish him, tied with 17, lost to the version of Cell he should have been able to beat, became insignificant.

As much as some on this thread have pointed out Vegeta's brutal loses, he's had actual victories as well. That being said, even if he isn't Frieza (and even if Vegeta's beef with Frieza seems to be mostly gone, since he was all business during the fight with Golden Frieza) I can see the logic in letting Vegeta take out frost, since it's the closest he'll get to finally killing Frieza with his own hands.

I don't care. I just want a good fight...for Piccolo...and Gohan...and Buu... and all the humans... and Videl to be a Super Saiyan... and Kaiouken to be useful again....and...

~Ducks a brick~

edited 6th Mar '16 10:48:16 AM by HandsomeRob

One Strip! One Strip!
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#35236: Mar 6th 2016 at 10:47:32 AM

[up][up][up][up]Pretty sure it was too late. Vegeta and everyone on it had been gone for years. Assuming it ever occurred to him or anyone else, which I doubt.

[up][up]Gohan was making him a better person. True he never was as evil, but he was still evil at first. He still planned on taking over the world and ruling it with an Iron Fist like his "father" before him.

Just because people don't get to actually carry out their evil plans doesn't make them any less evil. Cell was planning on wiping out the entire universe. Just because he didn't actually get the chance to doesn't mean he was less evil than Frieza, who actually got to act on his genocidal and planetary conquering whims.

edited 6th Mar '16 10:51:19 AM by LSBK

Ramona122003 Since: Jan, 2001
#35237: Mar 6th 2016 at 10:52:49 AM

He was evil, but never mass genocide evil where even Piccolo drew the line.

And we don't know how a Piccolo Jr world would look like since he wasn't like his father and didn't kill willy-nilly. Also, if Vegeta got his way he would an immortal ruling the universe like Frieza.

edited 6th Mar '16 10:56:14 AM by Ramona122003

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#35238: Mar 6th 2016 at 10:54:17 AM

How do you know that? He never got the chance to try.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#35239: Mar 6th 2016 at 10:57:05 AM

That's true.

We knew Piccolo Sr. was planning on doing just that. It's entirely possible that if Goku hadn't been there to stop him (and then Raditz didn't show up to change things) that Jr. might have walked the same path.

One Strip! One Strip!
Lionheart0 Since: Oct, 2009 Relationship Status: I'm just a hunk-a, hunk-a burnin' love
#35240: Mar 6th 2016 at 10:57:25 AM

Well hey, at least people are getting their wish of Goku stealing the glory less. tongue

Ramona122003 Since: Jan, 2001
#35241: Mar 6th 2016 at 10:57:58 AM

He actually says killing everyone on Earth was too much, which is why he even teamed up with Goku. He wanted to rule over humans and you can't rule a planet of corpses.

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#35242: Mar 6th 2016 at 11:00:40 AM

Also, I think a lot of people apply For the Evulz to Vegeta and Frieza when they shouldn't and think that makes them worse than other villains. If I'm not wrong For the Evulz implies that the evil in and of itself is the goal. Vegeta and Frieza, for any enjoyment they got out of it, actually had reasons for what they were doing beyond "I feel like being a dick, let's randomly blow up this planet."

[up]That's not him being less evil, that's Pragmatic Villainy. He didn't raise the concern out of any moral qualm, it was because he wanted people to rule over. Frieza had that whether he blow up a few planets and thus could afford to be more extreme.

edited 6th Mar '16 11:04:07 AM by LSBK

Lionheart0 Since: Oct, 2009 Relationship Status: I'm just a hunk-a, hunk-a burnin' love
#35243: Mar 6th 2016 at 11:00:52 AM

The More Evil Than Thou debate is kind of moot since canon-wise. When they died, Piccolo was allowed to keep his body and go to King Kai's planet. Vegeta went to hell. So it's kind of a pointless debate. tongue

IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#35244: Mar 6th 2016 at 11:03:47 AM

Actually, in the case of Freeza, much of his motivation is For the Evulz, because he basically lives a life in which there are no unfavorable consequences for his actions, so he basically acts as he pleases and it just so happens that he is very pleased by being an evil dick.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#35245: Mar 6th 2016 at 11:05:34 AM

He seemed pretty interested in running an evil space empire and conquering everywhere. That's a goal. That he got maliciously and sadistically evil while accomplishing it seemed more like a bonus.

Vegeta seemed to the same to me. If that village had just given him the ball I actually do think he would have just left them alone. Obviously, he still enjoyed killing them all but I don't think he would have done that if they had given into his demands.

edited 6th Mar '16 11:07:29 AM by LSBK

Ramona122003 Since: Jan, 2001
#35246: Mar 6th 2016 at 11:06:49 AM

Vegeta, at least in the anime, did blow up a planet to be a dick.

You also said we didn't know if Piccolo would do a mass genocide and I counter back that Piccolo said genocide was too far. It doesn't matter the reason. If Piccolo was as much as a dick as Vegeta after he was born, he wouldn't have challenged Goku to a fair one-on-one match instead of just nuking the tournament grounds the first chance he got.

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#35247: Mar 6th 2016 at 11:08:50 AM

[up]The counter example is noted. And who cares about a filler episode that was never referenced again?

But, yes, the reason actually does matter here. Like, I'm not suddenly a better person than an actual mass-murderer if the only reason I'm not mass-murdering too is because I think I could exploit all my potential murder victims.

Also, Piccolo was very clearly trying to kill Goku throughout the match, regardless of the rules. That's not "playing fair". And he did eventually nuke the ring. That he didn't do it at first doesn't mean much. Or is it a point in Vegeta's favor that he didn't immediately try and blow up the planet?

edited 6th Mar '16 11:27:39 AM by LSBK

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#35248: Mar 6th 2016 at 11:25:18 AM

Tangentially related, I don't like Frost having the same voice actor as Frieza. I mean, I get it, but I don't like it for some reason.

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#35249: Mar 6th 2016 at 11:43:02 AM

Probably because it makes him Frieza in all but name. Like Chilled....

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#35250: Mar 6th 2016 at 11:53:27 AM

@LSBK

Freeza didn't go about conquering because he wanted to rule the universe.

Freeza went about conquering because Freeza is a very sadistic dick, and there's literally nobody who'll say no to him and survive that actually pays attention to him.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari

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