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Just because you can put out enough energy to blow up a galaxy doesn't mean you are physically strong. Goku, during Z, wasn't nearly physically strong enough to generate an earth-shattering punch, for example.
x4, jokes are okay until the fandom actually starts believing them. If Goku didn't make Gohan fight Cell everyone, including Gohan, would've died. Goku stood no chance against him. Even the misstep of giving Cell a Senzu Bean turned out for the best since it gave Gohan a challenge enough to push him past his Super Saiyan limits. If not for that, what would they have done when another Cell-level threat arose?
edited 23rd Sep '13 6:49:54 PM by Cruherrx
"If you weren't so crazy I'd think you were insane."And why not? Freeza stopped the Galic gun with his foot, or maybe an object Goku's size making a hand breath movement is not likely to destroy a planet rather than get stuck in it or, as in battle of the gods, push a hole through it. Freeza survived a bigger than Earth explosion with exposed internal organs. Nothing on the planetary level really surprises me in Dragon Ball anymore. It is all on the same level of energy regardless of how it is portrayed.
Modified Ura-nage, Torture RackLet me put this a different way. Wizards can blow up mountains with let's say a lightning spell, but can't punch that mountain into oblivion. Clear?
Goku could only lift 40 tonnes in base in the Buu Arc, yet in that base form he could easily destroy planets.
edited 23rd Sep '13 7:58:35 PM by Cruherrx
"If you weren't so crazy I'd think you were insane."Does the Wizard take that same mountain leveling shot? If not we have a trope for it. The dragon ball cast does not just dish it out, it takes it with a grin. When you are cut in half and buried in a planet bigger than Earth the violently explodes and do not die the comparison becomes more like a Tank. It can knock down your home with a shell or it can just drive over it even though it prefers to shoot it. It will endure collisions and shots from other tanks too.
Modified Ura-nage, Torture RackDidn't you read the last part of my post, dude? Goku can only lift 40 tonnes in base, but can blow up entire planets in that form. What that means is there's a disparity between being able to blow a planet up with ki and blowing a planet up with a punch.
"If you weren't so crazy I'd think you were insane."And since when can Buu Saga Goku only lift 40 tons? He has had feats that suggest otherwise, such as standing at the end of a beam struggle shaking the entire world and was not crushed to dust by it. It was coming right down at him and all so that force should have equaled weight.
Or rather I should ask, why a supposed 40 ton figure would outweigh the fact any given fight after Piccolo Jr. significantly dwarfs that scale? His dad could casually blow away tanks which can weight around 67 tons and Goku could take his more powerful son's attacks just fine. I mean it would be like lifting a car, that would be impressive enough but not as much as stopping one speeding toward you.
Modified Ura-nage, Torture RackNo, he just couldn't move comfortably while having ten tons on each arm, in a x10 gravity planet, while flying (which according to the guidebooks uses up a ton of energy just to float). The result would of course be much different if he was bench pressing it.
Also, Goku isn't just a horrible father, he's an absolutely despicable person, who would let millions die for the sake of a good fight. Like when he declined using the Potara to beat Buu because he wanted to fight him, or when he spared Vegeta (who just got done screaming about how he was going to come back and blast Earth from orbit), again so he could fight him. And then there's his absolutely horseshit reasoning for abandoning his family at the end of the Cell Saga, which is clearly just an excuse so he can have fun in the afterlife.
Better than Vegeta, but it's really hard to be worse than Vegeta. Dude's basically Freeza. They're nearly identical characters until the very end of the Buu Saga.
edited 23rd Sep '13 9:43:02 PM by sockpuppet1
This is a good point. It's a good thing that Gohan had his experience against Cell to draw from in the seven years of peace and quiet following Cell's demise, and we are very fortunate he was able to unlock the power of Super Saiyan 2, because when Majin Buu rolled around, it allowed him to effortlessly take down Dabura, storm Babidi's chamber, and destroy Buu's pod before Babidi could rouse him. Who knows what could have happened if, instead, Gohan would up being completely irrelevant and never contributed anything meaningful again.
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.None of that would be a problem if Goku hadn't fucked everything up. Seriously, he's the true villain of that arc. And honestly, how was Gohan supposed to predict that Satan himself would come down in a spaceship and resurrect a god eating monster? He wouldn't even have had to fight Dabra if Goku didn't insist on making him go it alone and telling Vegeta not to help him. Vegeta's a bastard, but at least he was more rational than Goku for the first ten minutes of the arc.
And Goku had no idea how strong Cell was. Given his "oh shit" reaction when Cell powered up, it's pretty clear he thought that the Cell he was fighting was Cell's full strength. That Cell was tired and could've been taken down if Goku had eaten a senzu, denied Cell one, and ganged up on him with Gohan and the others. Yet he didn't, because he wanted his son to show off. Which nearly got his son beaten to death.
His plan would be a complete failure had Mr. Satan and 16 not been there, neither of which Goku could've predicted. Gohan would've gotten beaten to death by Cell and the rest would've been beaten to death by the juniors.
edited 23rd Sep '13 9:49:51 PM by sockpuppet1
Okay. Let's say he could lift 500 tonnes. That is still not enough power to punch through a planet the size of Earth (let alone 10x as dense), which was the whole point of this discussion.
... did you just call Goku a horrible person? There's trying to be contrary and then there's this. Have you even watched the series? He's legitimately the most good, but he's hampered by his man-child and saiyan tendencies. He likes to fight, but he doesn't let that irreparably endanger the Earth.
Wait, what? If you mean he was reluctant to use them at first, he eventually did. If you meant after being inside Buu split them apart, do remember that SS 3 Goku is stronger than non-fused-with-Goku/Gotenks/Piccolo Buu. As for Vegeta, he let him live because he was strong, but also because he thought they would be able to deal with him again should he return. That was his reasoning for allowing Frieza to live too.
And this is utter bullshit. First of all, Vegeta is no more a bad father than any father in a culture different from ours. For Saiyans, who prioritize battle and strength above all else, the fact that Vegeta has personally been training Trunks for most of his life shows just how much he cares about his son. When Vegeta truly didn't care, he told Trunks to fuck off and leave him alone (Android Saga).
And what Dragonball are you watching? Vegeta was only as evil as Frieza up until his death on Namek. He could've killed everyone on Earth after he had been sent there by the Dragonballs and sell the planet to the highest bidder since Goku was MIA, yet he didn't. In the Cell Arc he was more akin to Buuhan: full of evil threats but with no substance. Vegeta goes through the most character development of any Dragonball character.
Man, it sure is cool that Goku has precognition now. You realize that the whole reason he didn't beat Buu on his own was because he wanted Earth to have warriors that could. If a few billion die, the Dragonballs exist. He put Gohan in that situation so that he could unlock his hidden potential and the Earth would be better off for it. He didn't put Gohan down there in danger for some sick amusement. I mean, come on. Stop trying to read so deep into it when it's right fucking there in front of your eyes.
Because he knows Gohan is strong enough to be his successor. In dub Goku's words (paraphrasing): You can't expect a dead guy to keep fighting your battles. He taught Goten and Trunks fusion and was putting Gohan in danger so he could pull out his hidden power. There's a reason people joke about this stuff.
So much wrong in that one snippet.
Cell was
◊ stronger than him
◊ and he knew it.
◊ He was confident that Gohan could beat Cell and that that was the only way they could.
◊ As we've seen multiple times in Dragonball, 10 weaklings trying to take down a villain will get swatted away; their teamwork doesn't make up for each member's individual weakness. Everyone there knew Cell was way above them.
Sure is a good thing that didn't happen, isn't it? Goku had no other option in that situation but to leave it to Gohan. If all worked out, Gohan would be the strongest of them and would have saved the Earth. If it went sour, Gohan would be killed and then all of them would be killed, which is the same outcome as if Goku had kept Gohan out of the fight.
"If you weren't so crazy I'd think you were insane."Actually, it's never confirmed that Goku planned Gohan on reaching SS2 in the manga. He did in the anime, because Gohan first reached it while training in the time chamber, but that scene didn't happen in the manga.
What did happen was that Goku knew he couldn't defeat the Cell he fought, and he also knew that Gohan was stronger than either he or Cell were. Leaving it to Gohan was his only choice, otherwise everyone dies. The senzu bean was the only thing he did wrong, but his heart was in the right place - he tried to show his confidence in Gohan.
Also it's not really fair to blame Goku for not contacting anyone while he was at Kaio's, he doesn't keep in touch with anyone and they don't keep in touch with him, even when he's alive. Because no-one ever tries contacting him, he has no reason to even know he's supposed to do that.
edited 24th Sep '13 2:08:58 AM by Saiga
What the fuck are you guys talking about? Even at his strongest Goku can barely lift a building.
edited 24th Sep '13 3:00:10 AM by kay4today
I think what pisses me of the most is the whole 'Goku endangers the lives of billions for a good fight' yet no one brings up the fact that Piccolo contributed more to ALL of humanity being killed in a instant by essentially telling Super Buu 'Goten and Trunks need more time to train, so...you can go ahead and kill all the humans to pass the time.' And Super Buu does...in only two minutes. That's right, Piccolo sacrificed ALL OF MANKIND for the sake of Goten and Trunks getting two more minutes of training. And the fans never call him out on it. I love Piccolo but being the wisest of the Z Fighters he should know better when trying to outsmart Super Buu. Hell, in hindsight, that was actually a deconstruction of Did You Just Scam Cthulhu? because Super Buu probably thought to himself, 'Why spend hours going around killing every human when I can kill ALL OF THEM in a few minutes without needing to move'...and he did!
edited 24th Sep '13 6:14:17 AM by FireShadow
Even the main cast considers the humans expendable for the greater good since they can just wish them back anyways.
youtube.com/Fire Trainer 92Everything I mentioned happened in manga too and happened before that scene. Arale knocked General Blue across a continent (if you take Dragon Ball=Journey To The West and put the area around China anyway) or at least for miles over the visible horizon-force greatly in excess of forty tons, and he was able to stand and walk away from it just fine. Tao then killed this man with his tongue and Goku surpassed Tao Pai Pai not too long after that. It is a fairly arbitrary and questionable number to take seriously even before Goku grew into a man.
But if you are sticking to it I will not try to convince you not to anymore. I still do not see any significance in Goku breaking King Kai's planet but maybe that is just me.
So Bil's prediction about a fierce foe. Goku tries to stop a Garuda from eating Chichi/Videl (Bulma is supposed to be the holy man's stand in but Chichi is likely to be of more significance since she is the Ox King's daughter and Videl is pregnant with the child of the strongest man on Earth-unless Goku/Vegeta/Buu managed to surpass him recently. Alternatively it wants to eat Gohan or Goten because, according to Piccolo, they are the only good saiyans) while the rest of his family go on a desperate quest to find Bils, in hopes he can defeat it.
Modified Ura-nage, Torture RackAgainst Frieza, Goku could at least take comfort in the fact that, as a Super Saiyan, he was powerful enough to defeat Frieza legitimately. This is still a pig-headed and mind-numbingly stupid decision, however, because Frieza's not going to go home and go, "Well, I guess I should become a good person now." If Frieza hadn't gotten petty and tried to destroy the Earth, he would have just gone back to his life of killing and enslaving the galaxy, costing the lives of billions, and Goku would have gone home and never heard another word about it. It's fine to let genocidal psychopaths murder countless people as long as they're not doing it in your backyard? Fine with Goku.
As for Vegeta, yes, Goku was certain that he could handle Vegeta, but that certainty is also mind-numbing. Their victory over Vegeta was nothing short of a miracle that took the lives of half their group and nearly took the lives of the other half, as well as a Spirit Bomb powered up as much as Goku could get it at the time, a last-second Oozaru transformation by Gohan, and even YAJIROBE. The fight against Vegeta was so desperate that even YAJIROBE is a critical and vital element of why everyone isn't dead, and the price they paid for that victory was so severe they even lost the Dragon Balls. The entire Namek Arc exists just to undo the damage caused by Vegeta. For Goku to shrug his shoulders and go, "Nah, next time Vegeta shows up, we can take him," is absurdly reckless.
Let me make sure I've got your point straight.
- It was important for Goku to have Gohan fight Cell because Gohan needed to be strong enough to face all the threats that would come after Cell. Goku foresaw that the world would need Gohan.
- Gohan being completely irrelevant against the one threat that came after Cell was something Goku could never have foreseen.
Yeah, I'm not seeing your point. Goku may have thought that the world would need Gohan, but Goku was indisputably wrong.
Goku was dead by choice. He doesn't get to make the point of, "You can't expect a dead guy to fight for you," when he's only dead because he chose to be.
Piccolo didn't know Buu could do that. It was a good plan; if it took Buu a few hours to go finish exterminating the Earth, that's a few hours more time amplified by the Time Chamber for Goten and Trunks to train. Piccolo knew the Dragon Balls could wish back anyone who hasn't been wished back before with Dende's Balls. That's still a large percentage of the Earth's population; basically anyone that wasn't killed by Cell or by Vegeta at the World Tournament, as well as Android 17 for some reason. It was just bad luck that Buu decided, "Eh, screw that," and killed everyone with ki-sensing homing blasts or whatever the hell that was.
People are less judgmental of Piccolo's choice because it was rooted in the preservation of the Earth. Buying time against Majin Buu increases the chances of beating Majin Buu, and everyone will die anyway if Majin Buu cannot be defeated. By contrast, Goku and Vegeta's bone-headed decisions are rooted in the selfish desire to have stronger enemies to fight, at great risk to the lives of everyone not named Goku and Vegeta.
edited 24th Sep '13 8:31:56 AM by TobiasDrake
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.Is also the fact that Piccolo is The Spock in the Z-Fighters, he is supposed to be more cold and less emotional in this situations. The whole Earth was doomed aniways, and Boo would Kill everyone sooner or later, Piccolo just thought that it was a mater of time and the later he get to Gotenks, the better. It was a hard sacrifice to make, but he didn't had much choice.
Goku on the other hand, had to choose between saving the life of his both sons, or the life of Mr. Satan and thought "Hey, Mr. Satan is way more worthy, let my family and friends explode." Even Vegeta was pissed by Goku's lack os priorities. He clearly had a choice by then. Off course it was Satan who save the world in the end, but that was dumb luck, with Gohan there they would have more chances of defeating Kid Buu.
There's also the fact that he could have Killed Majin Buu in their first fight, but he thought it was a job for his sons, because they were the New Generation, so he let Majin Buu alive so he could later Kill his sons, and his wife, and his best friends, and he was basically the last Earthling alive when he decided it was time to defeat Buu. Piccolo on the Other Hand was the first to see that Babidy was the seed of all evil, and tried to get him out of the picture before thing go out of control. Goku let thing go out of control without thinking in the consequences.
Also, Piccolo at least is pretty much all "My God, What Have I Done?" after that, for what it's worth.
You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!Physics time, bro:
Size is very important. Gravity is a function of both mass and distance, meaning that the same mass concentrated in a smaller sphere will have higher gravity on the surface. That's why there's a difference between a star that's massive enough to become a black hole and an actual black hole- from a lightyear away, both would have the same gravitational pull, but the star is large enough that no point is close enough to the entirety of the star's mass to experience the kind of gravitational pull that a black hole's event horizon would represent.
If you play around with this:
http://astro.unl.edu/classaction/animations/renaissance/gravcalc.html
You can see that a planet the size of King Kai's (25m radius, eyeballing it) would need to have a mass of about 9x10^13 kg, versus Earths' 6x10^24 kg.
Also, you're being silly regarding this whole "Punched through a planet thing". It's massively less energy released than destroying a planet, and it's something that wouldn't happen anyway. If you actually punched a planet with that much force, you'd just get a massive explosion as the kinetic energy is scattered by the planet's mass. Bodies on that scale just don't act the way bodies on a human-level scale do. There's really no reason to put it above blowing up a planet, which requires far more energy.
The disparity is in Toriyama not having bothered to spend 10 seconds thinking about the physics involved. If DBZ characters couldn't put out planet-destroying levels of energy with their punches, then it would be pointless for them to bother punching characters who can completely no-sell planet-destroying energy blasts. But they do it all the time, and it even works.
Hell, any character who displays planet-busting levels of power should be killing everything on Earth whenever they have a serious fight. Just because you punch another super-tough dude instead of the ground doesn't mean that the energy just vanishes. You still have the amount of energy needed to destroy a world being released into the environment. But we never see that in pretty much any manga or comic book, because fiction is silly and has a lot of ridiculous things in it like Goku being able to push planet-busting levels of power around but having trouble lifting 40 tons.
edited 24th Sep '13 2:01:16 PM by Bloodsquirrel

Vegeta was ten times bigger than Earth and Freeza destroyed it. In base form with his finger if you buy that Bardock movie (it is the only one I put stock in the last two because Bardok was a cartoon character first).
Goku and Trunks were able to stop Final Form Freeza's planet buster attacks with their bare hands. The precedent was always there if you want to say "laws of physics"-it does not matter if you put a hole in the planet with your fist or blow it up with your finger, its the same scale of energy. If you can survive planet destroying moves and stop them with with your hands that's all for a feat of strength/durability you should ever need. (CBUB's Goku vs Superman was better than death battle's anyway by the fact it was fan voted, all the voter's reasons were readable and the voters who turned out in such force it broke the website so the "fight" was declared a draw. It forever settled Dragon Ball's Goku vs Superman as far as I am concerned. How about Sun Wukong vs Moses in a staff fight for a change?)
Modified Ura-nage, Torture Rack