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Cider The Final ECW Champion from Not New York Since: May, 2009 Relationship Status: They can't hide forever. We've got satellites.
The Final ECW Champion
#3476: Sep 22nd 2013 at 7:16:49 PM

Well, for a given technicality, life is when your heart starts and death is when it dies so yeah sure. In fiction land what most people mean by dead is 'not coming back to life without special anti death circumstances' but given how often those are used in Dragon Ball sure, Krillen and Piccolo might as well have had short deaths.

Yamcha, Tien and Chaozu's fight with the Ginyu Force is not in the manga's continuity though, so for the purposes of this thread it is the same thing as not being canon. But if you want to give Yamcha a bone sure, I could see him getting strong enough to beat Recoom. Tien beat Jeice and Burter though so he is still better. (I suppose Yamcha could beat Olibu too but beating TOEI characters does not count for anything)

Modified Ura-nage, Torture Rack
Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#3477: Sep 22nd 2013 at 7:18:52 PM

Why would you want to give Yamcha a bone?

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
sockpuppet1 Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#3478: Sep 22nd 2013 at 7:19:09 PM

Him beating Olibu was a bunch of crap, actually. Olibu was strong enough to put up a fight against a suppressed Pikkon, who was about as strong as base Goku in the Cell Games. This would suggest that Yamcha is stronger than base Cell Games Goku. Yeah no.

Dragon Ball has no official canon. I doubt Toriyama even knows what the word means. Basically the continuity is whatever you wish.

edited 22nd Sep '13 7:20:07 PM by sockpuppet1

nomuru2d Gamer-turning-maker from Port Saint Lucie, FL Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Longing for Dulcinea
Gamer-turning-maker
#3479: Sep 22nd 2013 at 7:21:03 PM

[up][up][up][up]Basically, general consensus is that only stuff Toriyama was more directly involved with is canon (which includes DBO, which involves plenty of time-traveling along the actual canon of DB). Can you prove he came up with the Ginyu-filler-fight?

Long live Cinematech. FC:0259-0435-4987
sockpuppet1 Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#3480: Sep 22nd 2013 at 7:21:49 PM

I don't have to, because neither Toriyama nor anyone in any official capacity has laid out an official canon. So "the general consensus" means nothing. Burden of proof is on you; did he go out of his way to declare it non-canon? No, because he never said anything about canon.

I think the closet thing were the timelines in the Chozenshuu and Daizenshuu guidebooks, and those contained things that Toriyama didn't work on, so yeah.

Aside from that, it's a fallacy to assume that everything Toriyama was involved in is canon. Where does it end? Do you have to measure exactly how much man hours he put in? Because he hasn't completely written ANY Dragon Ball project since the end of the manga, and yet has had involvement (in the form of ideas, character designs, and assorted concept art) in a wide variety of Dragon Ball projects.

edited 22nd Sep '13 7:30:14 PM by sockpuppet1

nomuru2d Gamer-turning-maker from Port Saint Lucie, FL Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Longing for Dulcinea
Gamer-turning-maker
#3481: Sep 22nd 2013 at 7:25:02 PM

And now you just sound like you're nitpicking because you're not convinced of anything.

Gonna do what is indicative of your name and ignore.

edited 22nd Sep '13 7:25:22 PM by nomuru2d

Long live Cinematech. FC:0259-0435-4987
sockpuppet1 Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#3482: Sep 22nd 2013 at 7:29:09 PM

Yeah, not nitpicking. Just pointing out how your "argument" is baseless bullshit with no official backing, because, again, there is NO official canon. There is simply what you pick and choose.

edited 22nd Sep '13 7:35:13 PM by sockpuppet1

Cider The Final ECW Champion from Not New York Since: May, 2009 Relationship Status: They can't hide forever. We've got satellites.
The Final ECW Champion
#3483: Sep 22nd 2013 at 7:42:36 PM

A lot of the cartoon's filler is did not happen in the comic, thus as far as 'manga purists' are concerned, did not happen at all. Dragon Ball online, which mostly ignores the cartoon's filler and its GT sequel is the 'preferred' extension of the manga's continuity(and will point out the mangaka's involvement as justification). Some will let Dr. Slump and the two latest movies because Akira Toriyama did them and they (and that they do not really contradict the manga but still allow them to ignore the show).

Well I am not a manga purist but I am perfectly fine with disowning the show and kicking all but the last two movies out of continuity. Unlike some I actually enjoyed most of the more original filler bits (The mirror world, Fake Namek, Garlic Jr, Other world tournament) just because the damn thing dragged on so long with inaction sequences anything was a welcome change. I will even go so far as to say TOEI should have done more of the kind of thing rather than having everyone stand around slack jawed until Toriyama finally gave them more plot to animate.

But when it actually comes to discussing the Dragon ball story, I am just fine with taking none of TOEI's superfluous additions into consideration...besides maybe for the sake of more content in one of the video games (going on a rampage with Broly is usually fun).

Dragon Ball has non canon in the sense there is no codified list of stuff that counts above the rest but there are several contradictory continuities in the franchise, so it does not bother me when people say "non canon" even if that technically is not the right term. It usually means "unconnected to the manga/disproved by something manga's author was more involved in" or maybe "Not mentioned in this guide book released by Shonen jump". I generally have an idea of what people mean by canon and kind of agree with their sentiment (GT was horrible).

Modified Ura-nage, Torture Rack
MsCC93 Since: May, 2012
#3484: Sep 23rd 2013 at 6:29:30 AM

About the whole "Goku is a bad father" thing, it's annoying how fans say he's the worst father in TV history. That's blatantly untrue because I think Goku isn't as bad as Ghetsis, Peter Griffin, Gozuboru Kaiba, and Homer Simpson.

edited 23rd Sep '13 6:30:34 AM by MsCC93

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#3485: Sep 23rd 2013 at 10:16:27 AM

Goku is definitely not the worst father in history. He's never once been abusive, and that's a prerequisite for worst father in history because of how many fathers there are that can meet it. When he can be bothered to be a parent, Goku tries to bring his kids up the way he was brought up, fighting to get stronger through blood, sweat, and tears. This isn't close to the best parenting method - especially that part about "when he can be bothered to be a parent" - but it's far from the worst.

I still consider him a bad father, but I want to note that this does not make him a bad person. Not everyone can be a great parent. Goku's a brain-damaged alien from a violent culture whose favorite hobby is punching people, considers the fate of the entire world to be his personal responsibility, and kind of got shanghaied into a marriage that has only ever had one scene that isn't thoroughly detestable.

Frankly, it's a miracle of personal character that he's even halfway-decent of a father.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Cruherrx I say things. from my own little world Since: Apr, 2010 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
I say things.
#3486: Sep 23rd 2013 at 11:40:16 AM

So I watched Battle of the Gods. Gohan turned into a Super Saiyan when he was giving Goku energy for SSG.

I respect Frieza as a villain because he suited the role so much and was the perfect villain to wrap up Goku's origins, but I never actually liked him. Buu I have no real feelings about either way. Cell would be the closest thing I have to a favorite villain in DB, but Bills has taken that spot. He was simply amazing.

Also, SS 3 Goku punched a hole through a planet 2x as dense as Earth when fighting Bills. So yeah, suck it Deathbattle.

edited 23rd Sep '13 12:22:19 PM by Cruherrx

"If you weren't so crazy I'd think you were insane."
Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#3487: Sep 23rd 2013 at 11:44:05 AM

Greatest floor pattern in Animal Crossing ever

edited 23rd Sep '13 11:44:17 AM by Anomalocaris20

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#3488: Sep 23rd 2013 at 11:55:37 AM

Also, SS 3 Goku punched a whole through a planet 2x as dense as Earth when fighting Bills. So yeah, suck it Deathbattle.

Uh-huh.

"I'm not impressed! I can do that too!" ~ Basically the entire cast

No feat of destruction is relatively impressive in Dragon Ball Z. The characters were blowing up planets at the start of the moniker.

edited 23rd Sep '13 11:56:19 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Cruherrx I say things. from my own little world Since: Apr, 2010 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
I say things.
#3489: Sep 23rd 2013 at 12:23:32 PM

Pretty sure most characters can't punch a hole through a planet. Blowing up a planet is a joke, but punching a hole through one has never been done by anyone in Dragonball until this movie. Don't buy into memes. The Abridged series is hilarious, but don't take it as canon. Please.

edited 23rd Sep '13 12:24:24 PM by Cruherrx

"If you weren't so crazy I'd think you were insane."
Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#3490: Sep 23rd 2013 at 1:01:41 PM

Actually, King Kai's planet is 10x denser than Earth, so that makes it even more impressive.

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#3491: Sep 23rd 2013 at 1:11:18 PM

Still doesn't mean anything to me. I stopped being impressed by feats of destruction after Namek exploded, because they're all basically the same feat. Buuhan, in a violent rage, nearly destroyed the very fabric of reality. That's an achievement even on Dragon Ball's relative scale. Punching a hole through a planet? Pales in comparison to that.

Dragon Ball is pretty consistently so caught up in grandiose, dramatic displays of power that it has no idea whether one is legitimately impressive compared to all the other grandiose, dramatic displays of power happening around it at all times. It doesn't merit a shock face. It's not shocking. It's weaker than Majin Buu.

edited 23rd Sep '13 1:12:20 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Fizzo Supervillain from Brazil Since: Jun, 2010
Supervillain
#3492: Sep 23rd 2013 at 1:33:31 PM

About Goku's parenting, I think the worst part isn't the fact that he often puts his sons life in danger just becuase he enjoys fighting with people trying to kill all life on earth. In this cases he is being an idiot, but is still trying to include his sons in what he like the most. The worst part is that he didn't give a crap about his sons when the Earth is not in danger.

So Gohan is 10 years old, has passed by a traumatic fighting, and wants to live in peace with his father? Goku's answer? "Oh, sorry Gohan, but I rather stay dead than come home with you?". And c'mon, he can talk with the living with the help of the North Kain since always, but never talked to his second son until the boy was seven? That's a guy that doesn't care at all. But then his son says to Vegeta "hey, I'm coming to a tournament", and we discovered that Goku was hearing all about that and answers "Hey, I'm coming to, I will be back to the land of the living just to fight some more for a day, and then leave you all alone again."

This guy is the worst. Not only a bad father, is a bad friend, a bad husband. The only decent dad in the Z-Warriors is Krillin, that sees mortal danger in front of him and says. "Hey guys, I have a wife and a daughter, so I'm leaving the fight to you." and tries to run away. (off course he fails in running, but is the tought that counts).

MsCC93 Since: May, 2012
#3493: Sep 23rd 2013 at 2:42:55 PM

edited 13th Feb '14 11:56:03 AM by MsCC93

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#3494: Sep 23rd 2013 at 3:27:29 PM

And c'mon, he can talk with the living with the help of the North Kain since always, but never talked to his second son until the boy was seven? That's a guy that doesn't care at all. But then his son says to Vegeta "hey, I'm coming to a tournament", and we discovered that Goku was hearing all about that and answers "Hey, I'm coming to, I will be back to the land of the living just to fight some more for a day, and then leave you all alone again."

This is a very good point. Even if you can justify Goku staying dead as protecting the world somehow, he could still call. There's no good reason he couldn't.

  • BULMA: *through King Kai* Yeah, I'm breaking up with you. You haven't called me in MONTHS.
  • YAMCHA: I'VE BEEN DEAD!!!
  • BULMA: Well, that's not stopping you NOW, is it?
~Abridged Series

edited 23rd Sep '13 3:28:16 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Demongodofchaos2 Face me now, bitch! from In a Cultivation World (Ancient one) Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Face me now, bitch!
#3495: Sep 23rd 2013 at 3:33:42 PM

King Kai's planet isn't Denser, it has more gravity.

There's a difference and GBE is a better way to scale that.

just because it has more gravity, doesn't mean it's tougher, you also have to take the size of the planet itself into account as well.

edited 23rd Sep '13 3:36:05 PM by Demongodofchaos2

Watch Symphogear
Cruherrx I say things. from my own little world Since: Apr, 2010 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
I say things.
#3496: Sep 23rd 2013 at 3:44:25 PM

[up]If it has 10x more gravity, it has to be 10x more massive. That's how physics works, bro. Size is utterly irrelevant.

@tobias I stopped being impressed by feats of destruction after Namek exploded, sure is a good thing I'm not you.

Goku is a manchild. It's obvious as shit that he loves his family, but he doesn't exactly know what it means to be a father since he never really had one. He had Grandpa Gohan, but that time was spent training and surviving in the mountains. When he isn't dead he's out on trips in the forest with Gohan and shiz, just like he used to do with Grandpa Gohan. He doesn't even consider himself a bad father; what he lamented was not being able to be there more so they could do more of that stuff together. Goku isn't by any means a bad father given the circumstances.

edited 23rd Sep '13 3:44:49 PM by Cruherrx

"If you weren't so crazy I'd think you were insane."
Demongodofchaos2 Face me now, bitch! from In a Cultivation World (Ancient one) Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Face me now, bitch!
#3497: Sep 23rd 2013 at 3:56:12 PM

[up] Real World Physics don't apply in fictionland.

That's just how it is.

Besides It's GBE was already calced here.

edited 23rd Sep '13 4:02:16 PM by Demongodofchaos2

Watch Symphogear
MSCC93 Since: May, 2012
#3498: Sep 23rd 2013 at 4:22:44 PM

[up][up] You deserve a metal.[awesome] I'm pretty sure that Toriyama only wanted to be realistic with Goku being a heavily-flawed father, considering he didn't have any parents in his life.

Cruherrx I say things. from my own little world Since: Apr, 2010 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
I say things.
#3499: Sep 23rd 2013 at 4:51:09 PM

[up][up]...

Words do not even.

"Real World Physics don't apply in fictionland."

...

You're the guy that's always going about how X has yottatonnes of Y. Or how G blahblahblahstupidshit B.

And in that same post you link someone that is using real physics to... Please, just stop. And you realize that those calculations are inherently wrong, right? He used scaled manga panels to come up with the planet's size, which is bad because Toriyama is not infallible and will always draw the planet the same size every single time. What we do know is the planet has 10x Earth's gravity, an exact measurement spoken by the characters, which means the planet has 10x the mass of Earth. It's that simple.

"If you weren't so crazy I'd think you were insane."
FireShadow (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#3500: Sep 23rd 2013 at 6:11:18 PM

I know this may sound crazy but I sort of feel sorry for Goku. I mean him sending Gohan to face Cell has essentially become the moment that unjustly defined his character. He knew Gohan was stronger than him and could become a SSJ2 and kick Cell's ass and thought that Gohan taking on Cell at full strength would bring out his hidden power considering Goku has seen Gohan do such a thing against other strong enemies (Raditz, Vegeta, Nappa, Frieza etc.), in this case it back fired on him. But if there is one thing that is totally Goku's fault it is the fact he never filled Gohan in on his plan for him unlock his potential and become a SSJ2. Now THAT was total screw-up.

edited 24th Sep '13 4:19:42 AM by FireShadow


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