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unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#34276: Feb 19th 2016 at 2:28:01 PM

Also, I thought Saiga said that in Japan Broly was just a weird mutant, and not the "real" fulfillment of the "Legendary Super Saiyan" "prophecy"?

Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#34277: Feb 19th 2016 at 2:30:14 PM

Dark Messiah: Broly is the Saiyan race's messiah. The Legendary Super Saiyan, a born paragon of everything their race stands for; fighting, killing, and destruction.

Light Is Not Good: He's dressed like some sort of regal/holy being, and is also implied to be the Saiyan equivalent of the Messiah. In his purest form, he's a self-described devil. Probably qualifies as Pure Is Not Good as well, given the fact that he was able to gain the Super Saiyan transformation at what is implied to be childhood, which was stated to require a pure heart for him to do so.

Straight from his character page on this site.

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#34278: Feb 19th 2016 at 2:31:12 PM

That would make more sense. If the whole "Legendary Super Saiyan" thing was the product of a translation error it doesn't make much sense for that to be the basis of a movie in Japan.

Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#34279: Feb 19th 2016 at 2:36:29 PM

Um...the Japanese name is Densetsu no Sūpā Saiya-jin, which means what it obviously is.

Also, Daizenshuu 6 refers to Broly as the latest of the Legendary Super Saiyans who appear every thousand years.

edited 19th Feb '16 2:40:30 PM by Ssj3Gojira

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
Rinsankajugin Since: Feb, 2012
#34280: Feb 19th 2016 at 2:45:20 PM

What would happen if Kid Buu absorbed Broly?

Would he be larg or smol?

Zeromaeus Since: May, 2010
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#34282: Feb 19th 2016 at 3:11:33 PM

He'd probably avage out.

unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#34283: Feb 19th 2016 at 3:54:57 PM

...Wait, the Danzenshuu thingy that Saiga and the rest of you all keep talking about acknowledge that Broly exists?

And, like, you take its word as official?

...I mean, okay.

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#34284: Feb 19th 2016 at 4:01:25 PM

The Daizenshuu are definitely interesting and cool. Daizenshuu 7, for instance, has a profile on pretty much everyone (except, for some reason, General White) and seems to want to work everything into one canon, even things that don't make much sense. Like, it says Dr. Frappe was one of Gero's colleagues on the Android project.

unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#34285: Feb 19th 2016 at 4:04:54 PM

So. So wait.

So all this time you've been using these duzuwhatevers to talk about what is and isn't "canon".

But also talking about the filler and movies as not "canon"?

surprised

!!!

...I need an emoticon for exasperated confusion!

Saiga! Explain!

edited 19th Feb '16 4:05:40 PM by unnoun

LordofLore Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Consider his love an honor
#34286: Feb 19th 2016 at 4:12:28 PM

Did Saiga's internet problems get fixed already? I think he said he might disappear for a few days while getting them fixed.

edited 19th Feb '16 4:15:58 PM by LordofLore

unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#34287: Feb 19th 2016 at 4:15:04 PM

...Oh.

Sorry Saiga!

I hope you're doing okay!

...IANCE! Tobias! Whichever other ones of you mentions the Dzahuahwa! Explain! Explain! Explaaaaaiiiiiin!

Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#34288: Feb 19th 2016 at 4:16:52 PM

Calm down woman! You're acting like a little kid on a sugar high...in a candy store.

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
Arha Since: Jan, 2010
HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#34291: Feb 19th 2016 at 4:21:30 PM

The Daizenshuu are definitely official, dunno about "canon."

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#34292: Feb 19th 2016 at 4:30:48 PM

Saiga has said more than once that there is no one all consuming Dragon Ball canon. The anime is canon to the anime (and Super seems to be going by that) and the manga to the manga. The movies don't really fit into either. That seems to be his view on things at least, when he gets back maybe he'll elaborate more.

edited 19th Feb '16 4:31:30 PM by LSBK

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#34293: Feb 19th 2016 at 4:33:22 PM

I though Super would be on-par with the manga (a sort of "highest canon," if you will) at first but that doesn't seem to be the case anymore. If it ever was.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#34294: Feb 19th 2016 at 4:33:33 PM

I've always considered the Daizenshuu a disreputable source of information.

unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#34295: Feb 19th 2016 at 4:42:35 PM

I mean, I'm shocked that it acknowledges Broly.

Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#34296: Feb 19th 2016 at 4:55:44 PM

It's not like they had a choice in the matter. You can't ignore Broly no matter how much you try.

Let the joy of love give you an answer! Check out my book!
IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#34297: Feb 19th 2016 at 5:02:55 PM

Broly can't be ignored.

His power is maximum.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#34298: Feb 19th 2016 at 5:45:56 PM

It's possible to acknowledge Broly without considering him part of the "official canon".

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#34299: Feb 19th 2016 at 7:08:16 PM

Especially if you don't ever address an "official canon" like the guidebook do.

So, Vegeta, then? Vegeta is the best depiction of Broly?

No. Contrary to popular belief Vegeta didn't have that big a problem with Goku's attitude. It rubbed him the wrong way, but being inferior to Kakarot was always the issue.

We seen when Vegeta is stronger than Goku (at various points) that he doesn't really have much animosity toward him. He seems to find it amusing, even. It only frustrates him when Goku is in charge and he can't dispute that.

Broly would not be inferior to Goku. He wouldn't even care about Goku's strength. He would be so obsessed with Saiyan ideals that he'd want to murder Goku just for acting the way he did.

A little similar to Raditz, a little similar to Vegeta. In other words, he IS the more extreme version of the traits we see in other Saiyans. That's what it means to be the Saiyan ideal.

Also, Paragus wanted revenge on Vegeta, Broli had none of that and went after Goku. In this hypothetical version, Broly would be going against Paragus because Vegeta Senior tried to kill him like a real Saiyan. And then when Vegeta has to help Goku he goes all Broken Pedestal.

Also, I thought Saiga said that in Japan Broly was just a weird mutant, and not the "real" fulfillment of the "Legendary Super Saiyan" "prophecy"?

Nah, he was designed as a Super Saiyan with a form unique to his genetics. Movie 8 spun that into "Legendary Super Saiyan", and tried to make him out to be the real thing.

Also, Daizenshuu 6 refers to Broly as the latest of the Legendary Super Saiyans who appear every thousand years.

Which is funny, because they attribute this to being the same thing Vegeta spoke of on Namek. But Vegeta didn't talk about the Super Saiyan appearing once every thousand years, he spoke about the last appearing about a thousand years ago. It's funny that official material made the error that so many fans independently made.

...Wait, the Danzenshuu thingy that Saiga and the rest of you all keep talking about acknowledge that Broly exists?

And, like, you take its word as official?

...I mean, okay.

Saiga! Explain!

As mentioned, they're definitely official - which means that they are licensed Dragon Ball material, as part of the franchise. Everything licensed by Shuiesha (who publish Shonen Jump) is official - that's the guidebooks, GT, movies, Evolution.

But they don't try to touch on canon at all. At least, not explicitly - there are several people who interpret things the guidebooks state as having an impact on canon.

Now, on the actual Daizneshuu, I think I should first explain how they were divided. There are 10 Daizenshuu in total, and they each have a different focus.

So we've got one for Toriyama's illustrations, two for the manga, three for the anime, one of the movies, two for a card game (the real WTF entry), and one that's just a big encyclopedia.

Broli is mentioned in the movie guide (Daizenshuu 6) and the big ass encyclopedia (Daizenshuu 7).

So in terms of acknowledging he "exists"... well he does in a literal sense. The officially licensed movie is a product that exists. Whether Broli exists from an in-universe standpoint (or a canon one) is something not ratified by the guidebooks.

Daizenshuu 6, which is all about the movies, even points out where movies can't fit into the normal timeline and describes some of them as "movie only events" or "an alternate dimension story". That's probably the closest you'll get to canon statements - but as seen in franchises with official canon, alternate universes can still count.

Also, while Daizenshuu 7 is the super inclusive encyclopedia, it still separates anything that isn't from the manga. For instance, there will be a description of a character or technique, and it will describe anything from the manga. Then it will say "in the anime/movie X, this was shown..." always marking non-manga information as such rather than presenting everything as though it is the same source.

But yeah... if the guidebooks, or anything, ratified Broly's existence, what would it mean? Even if he, or the movie, were canon it definitely did not take place in the manga or anime's timeline. It could be canon to an alternate reality, but how is that different from being non-canon? That's another thing the franchise would have to define.

To use two examples: TYPE-MOON has a confirmed canon, that includes alternate realities. So the stories may only take place in one reality, but the worldbuilding and "rules" presented in that reality can be considered to apply to all (canon) realities. Whereas a non-canon universe can have a completely different set of rules and worldbuilding that does not have an impact on the canon 'verses.

But then you've got Digimon which has canon alternate realities, and the worldbuilding/rules in one universe don't apply to others, so the mechanics can be completely different. Canon is important here because the universes still "exist" in a multiverse where someone can travel from one universe to another.

For Dragon Ball, it has never explicitly dealt with canon, so if all we got was "Broly is canon" we wouldn't even know what effect that has on the franchise.

Daizenshuu 7, for instance, has a profile on pretty much everyone (except, for some reason, General White) and seems to want to work everything into one canon, even things that don't make much sense. Like, it says Dr. Frappe was one of Gero's colleagues on the Android project

That's not what they're doing. They're trying to fill one of Toei's plot holes, it has nothing to do with continuity welding because this problem appears in the anime itself even without taking other continuities into account.


Oh and my internet is not fixed, it's just less fucky. TPG still haven't done anything (they recently messaged me to say they've got a technician booked next month, and that's just the testing). It's just that I went from my internet being disconnected all of the time to some of the time. It was still disconnected this morning, for instance.

But it does mean I can still actually use the website instead of being absent, so that's not so bad. My roommate makes enough of a mess that I can do housework any time it's out!smile

edited 19th Feb '16 7:11:14 PM by Saiga

Arha Since: Jan, 2010
#34300: Feb 19th 2016 at 7:32:05 PM

Throw your roommate away instead.


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