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theweirdKiddokun What a Wonderful World! from Last Place in the Race Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
What a Wonderful World!
#3401: Sep 16th 2013 at 6:47:58 PM

17 and 18 were too hard to control, so he made 19 a machine...that didn't have 16's problems.

The Reaper Games starts anew.
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#3402: Sep 16th 2013 at 7:11:55 PM

Why he made himself like 19 instead of like 17 and 18 is never explained though.

You'd think he'd prefer unlimited power.

One Strip! One Strip!
Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#3403: Sep 16th 2013 at 7:13:53 PM

Because then 19 would ask questions.

Or he's just a nincompoop.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#3404: Sep 16th 2013 at 7:16:20 PM

[up]

Second one for me.

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Cider The Final ECW Champion from Not New York Since: May, 2009 Relationship Status: They can't hide forever. We've got satellites.
The Final ECW Champion
#3405: Sep 16th 2013 at 7:34:23 PM

Unlimited stamina, not power. Dr. Gero had energy absorption which, in theory, would have eventually allowed him to surpass 17 and 18. In practice, the Z fighters ended up being too strong for that and were about to find his lab and destroy all his research. 17 and 18 were something he had to resort to.

As for Cell? The unlimited stamina thing might have been an adequate explanation if he had it, but he did not. He got tired just like everyone else (hence the sensu bean). Perhaps his energy could never fall lower than whatever 17's were, once those components were regenerated considering them being destroyed and all...but would that really be enough to get Cell back to full strength? I think it would have taken a few Earth days at least unless then Zenkai really did restore him.

You know, Cell used to be my favorite villain but now I'm having trouble remembering what I saw in him. I guess his design was really cool, or maybe it was the giant rubber action figure with the detachable body parts? (Janemba's was the same size as Goten, which made me think he was a wimp before I saw his movie, he should have been larger than Goku)

Modified Ura-nage, Torture Rack
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#3406: Sep 16th 2013 at 8:41:37 PM

I don't remember why Trunks didn't remember 19 and 20. The explanation I've always sat with was that 19 and 20 did exist in Trunks's time, but Vegeta, Piccolo, and the others defeated them, just as they did in this timeline. Then 20 escaped and released 17 and 18, who set about completely slaughtering the protagonists. With Goku dead from the heart disease, 17 and 18 had no reason to refrain from killing everybody, and the reason Trunks never heard of 19 and 20 is because the only living person who ever met them before they were destroyed was Gohan, and it never really came up.

But that's pure fanwank. I don't know if there's a canon explanation.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#3407: Sep 16th 2013 at 10:18:32 PM

I thought it was mentioned that 19 and 20 didn't exist in his timeline.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#3408: Sep 17th 2013 at 1:20:57 AM

Funnily enough, the first Trunks they meet did know of 19 and 20 - because they were still the villains at that stage. My explanation for that is that two Trunks' came to that timeline, and the first one we meet is the one Cell killed.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#3409: Sep 17th 2013 at 9:45:08 AM

Trunks has no way of knowing if they did or did not exist in his timeline; only that they don't exist by the time he's old enough to remember. There are four possible scenarios regarding 19 and 20.

1 - They existed and he knows. This requires someone to have informed Trunks of their existence. The only living person who could have done so is Gohan, and that is only if Gohan was present at the battle with the Androids, but wasn't killed by 17 and 18.

2 - They existed and he doesn't know. This requires Trunks to not be acutely aware of everything that happened, and have only second-hand knowledge to go on.

3 - They did not exist, and he knows. He knows, specifically, that they never existed. This requires Trunks to be acutely aware of everything that happened, somehow.

4 - They did not exist, and he doesn't know. Like option 2, this requires Trunks to not be acutely aware of everything that happened, and only have second-hand knowledge to go on.

The only scenario that are provable are scenarios 1 and 3, and 1 is provably false. Trunks did not know that 19 and 20 existed, so scenario 1 can be ruled out immediately. That leaves us with the question of which statement is accurate: "Trunks did not know 19 and 20 existed" or "Trunks knew that 19 and 20 did not exist". I am not sure how the latter statement is plausible.

The best conclusion I can draw is that Trunks is going entirely off secondhand knowledge from Gohan and Bulma. Two androids appeared in South City, two androids killed everyone, two androids now rampage all over the world. He simply assumed it was the same two androids in all three cases. But ultimately, there is no way to be certain whether they existed or not in Trunks's timeline, because the only person who can testify doesn't have any way of knowing.

edited 17th Sep '13 9:48:08 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#3410: Sep 17th 2013 at 5:20:00 PM

If they didn't exist, and he knew, then it'd be because he was explicitly told they were the same. Gohan or Bulma could have referred to them by name when telling him about the first attack.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#3411: Sep 17th 2013 at 6:05:40 PM

My guess is they didn't exist.

The whole point of Trunk going back in time was to give the Z-Warriors info they previously lacked so they could prepare.

Why would he leave out the fact that there are two sets of Androids, even ignoring the fact that he was trying to avoid damaging the Timeline more than he already had?

One Strip! One Strip!
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#3412: Sep 17th 2013 at 6:53:10 PM

We know that he doesn't know about 19 and 20, but that doesn't necessarily mean they don't exist.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#3413: Sep 17th 2013 at 7:02:52 PM

Don't you think Gohan would have mentioned that there was 2 other Androids besides 17 and 18?

....no wait. It is possible that he never bothered because they weren't important.

But then again, if Trunks asked for the full story, Gohan would likely tell him.

....I'm confusing myself on this, but I'm gonna go back to saying that Gohan would have mentioned them.

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randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#3414: Sep 17th 2013 at 8:24:49 PM

19 and 20 would only exist if Dr.Gero made the remote to shut down 17 and 18 in order to make them calmer and more obedient, without that remote they kill him and he never "fixes" them or builds a more controllable replacement.

edited 17th Sep '13 9:12:00 PM by randomness4

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#3415: Sep 18th 2013 at 11:19:30 PM

[up][up] Gohan would have mentioned them if Gohan himself was present for the battle with the Androids, but we don't know that for certain either. The only reason he was present this time is because Goku and Piccolo absconded with him in response to Trunks's warning. In a world where they never trained for the Androids and then Goku died of a heart failure just before the Androids appeared, there is no guarantee Gohan would even be present for the battle, which could also explain how he survived it.

One way or another, we just don't know enough details about how events transpired in Trunks's timeline to accurately say for certain yay or nay on 19 and 20.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Cider The Final ECW Champion from Not New York Since: May, 2009 Relationship Status: They can't hide forever. We've got satellites.
The Final ECW Champion
#3416: Sep 21st 2013 at 8:52:03 AM

I just thought of something. If Battle Of The Gods ever gets an English dub we must demand it gets Bruce Faulconer music. Failing that, whoever did Hero of Heroes for Final Bout.

Not a huge fan of TOEI's show but I loved the Faulconer themes, especially SS 3 Goku, so it seems appropriate for him to do SSG Goku. Hero of Heroes managed to make something from GT (SS 4) cool so its composer would be a worthy substitute.

Modified Ura-nage, Torture Rack
MsCC93 Since: May, 2012
#3417: Sep 21st 2013 at 8:53:42 AM

The only problem I have with this show is the treatment of some characters. I think it's so bad that I'm starting to think that even the writers of Family Guy treat their characters better.

kay4today Princess Ymir's knightess from Austria Since: Jan, 2011
Princess Ymir's knightess
#3418: Sep 21st 2013 at 11:52:36 AM

But Family Guy is a comedy!

Granted, Yamcha is a joke too...

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#3419: Sep 21st 2013 at 11:57:38 AM

[up]

See that right there.

Exactly what [up][up] is talking about.

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Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#3420: Sep 21st 2013 at 11:58:54 AM

Meh, they're just fictional characters.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
MsCC93 Since: May, 2012
#3421: Sep 21st 2013 at 12:53:27 PM

[up] I agree, which is why I get scared when I see flame wars erupt over them.

[up][up] THANK YOU.

[up][up][up] I agree it is a comedy show.

kay4today Princess Ymir's knightess from Austria Since: Jan, 2011
Princess Ymir's knightess
#3422: Sep 21st 2013 at 1:31:51 PM

You guys misjudge me, I just took a chance to mock Yamcha. tongue

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#3423: Sep 21st 2013 at 1:35:05 PM

I never miss a chance to mock Yamcha, as difficult as it is to remember it exists.

edited 21st Sep '13 1:35:17 PM by Anomalocaris20

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#3424: Sep 21st 2013 at 1:57:55 PM

Well, Dragon Ball did start off as a comedy.tongue

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#3425: Sep 21st 2013 at 1:58:33 PM

[up][up]

I know. Mocking Yamcha is fun. That being said, I do wish Toriyama hadn't fallen into that habit like he did. Spreading around the Worf Effect a little might have left Yamcha retain some dignity.

The idea of him as a joke is so thoroughly ingrained into the fandom that the very idea of Yamcha not being a joke is roundly rejected, and usually just leads to more mocking.

To say nothing of the fact that people will be talking about something else, only for someone to just randomly insult Yamcha because it's funny.

My problem with it mainly comes from my raw hatred of The Worf Effect, since it becomes way to easy to keep going back to that particular well over and over again.

One Strip! One Strip!

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