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TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#33776: Feb 4th 2016 at 3:05:38 PM

I feel like it's kind of a pointless argument since there's no true measuring stick anymore anyway for any of the humans. Even Krillin's strength is kind of questionable because even when you consider his Guru-boost, he's also slacked off on training for 8+ years just like Gohan.

To be fair, Gohan's strength didn't wane that much in the Buu arc. He was still keeping up with Dabura, a foe comparable to Cell. He was losing but it was slow-going on Dabura's part.

I figure he's about as strong as Krillin because that's how power levels work in this series. See: Piccolo suddenly and inexplicably becoming dozens of times stronger than Goku as soon as he hit Super Saiyan.

Piccolo did what now?

Oh, by the by, why do I get called out when I apply a pseudo random number to Tenshinhan but Tobias doesn't get called out when he applies a pseudo random number to Videl?

I did what now?

All I said was that it'd be cool for her to keep her Super Saiyan form after Pan's born.

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Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#33777: Feb 4th 2016 at 3:08:11 PM

Oh, wait. Sorry, Tobias. It was IANCE who did that.

Let the joy of love give you an answer! Check out my book!
Arha Since: Jan, 2010
#33778: Feb 4th 2016 at 3:10:46 PM

Piccolo was about one million against Freeza while Goku was three million. This continued the trend all the way back since they first met of Goku being just a bit better. Just a bit stronger when they fought, nearly equal at Raditz but Goku slightly ahead, 3500 vs 8000+ against the saiyans and finally Freeza. So Goku was growing at least as fast and generally faster. But then the Freeza arc ended and Goku's effective strength was 150 million or so. Against 19 and 20 suddenly Piccolo is good enough to take on Gero while Vegeta in SS, who is Goku levelish, takes out 19. You see the problem here? That means Piccolo must be dozens of times stronger than Vegeta or Goku in base.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#33779: Feb 4th 2016 at 3:11:04 PM

You're lucky yer a dragon.

[up] That's fair. In Piccolo's defense, however, he had not only three years but a Super Saiyan for a sparring partner. Tien just has Chiaotzu.

edited 4th Feb '16 3:15:56 PM by TobiasDrake

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randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#33780: Feb 4th 2016 at 3:18:57 PM

Goku must be a way better fighter than Piccoro...if his 3 million took on Freeza while Pickles' 1 million barely too 2nd form Freezer.

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#33781: Feb 4th 2016 at 3:19:48 PM

[up][up][up] Huh. I never thought about that.

Of course, it's entirely possible that Super Saiyan wasn't necessary to defeat 19 and 20. Goku just used it because safety (I guess) and Vegeta used it because he wanted to show off his Super Saiyan Cock to everyone.

[up] Goku was using the Kaiouken x10 the entire time so his fighting strength was effectively 30 million.

edited 4th Feb '16 3:20:36 PM by Zelenal

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TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#33782: Feb 4th 2016 at 3:20:09 PM

[up][up] Goku was using the Kaioken up to x10 sporadically throughout the fight. His battle power was 3 million but his effective battle power ranged up to 30 mil.

He also hits x20 at one point for a Kamehameha, which succeeds only in pissing off Frieza by actually causing him pain.

Frieza, meanwhile, was adjusting and readjusting his power up to 50% (60 mil) - again, with the exception of blocking Goku's x20 Kamehameha.

edited 4th Feb '16 3:22:04 PM by TobiasDrake

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Arha Since: Jan, 2010
#33783: Feb 4th 2016 at 3:26:19 PM

Wait, didn't I bring this up not long ago? It started a discussion about how Piccolo would actually be really strong again if he knew the Kaio-ken because of how strong he is without transformations.

Also, SS was kind of necessary to beat 19 given that Vegeta was tied afterward and merely bluffed Gero into fleeing before taking a senzu.

randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#33784: Feb 4th 2016 at 3:27:03 PM

If Goku was sporadically using Kaioken and Freeza was constantly readjusting his power the entire time, that wouldn't actually change anything.

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TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#33785: Feb 4th 2016 at 3:27:39 PM

Vegeta also allowed 19 to absorb a ton of energy from him, though.

[up] It means that Goku's strength was able to match higher level's of Frieza's before being outmatched than Piccolo's was? That isn't necessarily a judgment on who's the better fighter. It just means Goku was stronger than Piccolo and...well, he was.

Piccolo's battle power was around 1 million while Goku was between 3 and 30 mil at any given moment, barring one brief instance of 60 mil.

edited 4th Feb '16 3:30:03 PM by TobiasDrake

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IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#33786: Feb 4th 2016 at 3:32:17 PM

Goku is effectively stronger than Piccolo, but Piccolo could be brought back into relevancy through sheer abuse of the Kaioken, which he could realistically use to get into spitting distance of Goku's powerlevel, because his base at the time of the Buu saga shouldn't be that much lower than Gohan's Super Saiyan.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
Lionheart0 Since: Oct, 2009 Relationship Status: I'm just a hunk-a, hunk-a burnin' love
#33787: Feb 4th 2016 at 3:41:55 PM

[up]I feel like Kaioken was established as being Awesome, yet Impractical, the taxing it puts on your body being too much of a trade off for the momentary power boost.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#33788: Feb 4th 2016 at 3:49:46 PM

[up]

This is true. Though if you train hard enough, you can withstand that strain pretty well.

But Toriyama abandoned Kaiouken anyway, and everyone agreed it was because it was broken, so that's irrelevant.

One Strip! One Strip!
HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#33789: Feb 4th 2016 at 3:53:41 PM

Piccolo's really the only one I want keeping up with the Saiyans. Heck, if Raditz is an average Saiyan and those three guys Dodoria killed are average Namekians, Namekians are typically twice as strong as Saiyans.

Shlugo_the_great King of Burgers from Far Far Away (On A Trope Odyssey) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
King of Burgers
#33791: Feb 4th 2016 at 3:56:06 PM

Unfortunately Piccolo run out of people to fuse with so he's out of luck.

Lionheart0 Since: Oct, 2009 Relationship Status: I'm just a hunk-a, hunk-a burnin' love
#33792: Feb 4th 2016 at 4:02:30 PM

[up]Unless he fuses with a Namekian from Universe 6. wink

edit

On that note, it'd be cool if Pikkon was made canon and retconed into being a Universe 6 Namekian. His design was based on Piccolo anyways.

edited 4th Feb '16 4:03:56 PM by Lionheart0

Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#33793: Feb 4th 2016 at 4:03:09 PM

Or he finds Guru in the afterlife and fuses with him.

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#33794: Feb 4th 2016 at 4:03:15 PM

Or the others get their shit together.

One Strip! One Strip!
IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#33795: Feb 4th 2016 at 4:50:10 PM

IIRC, the Namekians we saw fight Freeza's guys weren't from the Warrior Clan. So it's likely that the average warrior namekian is significantly more powerful than the average Saiyan.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#33796: Feb 4th 2016 at 5:00:18 PM

Or he wished Demon King Piccolo back into existence and fused with him.

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#33797: Feb 4th 2016 at 5:01:15 PM

If Piccolo fused with Guru, though, would he inherit his giganticness?

Also then Nail would have to share headspace with Guru.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#33798: Feb 4th 2016 at 5:08:52 PM

[up][up] Except that wouldn't work since Piccolo "Jr." is the exact same guy as Piccolo Daimaou. If he wasn't, God wouldn't exist anymore.

If the devil's "son" wasn't exactly the same as the devil, God wouldn't exist anymore. What a odd sentence.

edited 4th Feb '16 5:09:32 PM by Zelenal

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Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#33799: Feb 5th 2016 at 6:46:48 AM

I figure he's about as strong as Krillin because that's how power levels work in this series. See: Piccolo suddenly and inexplicably becoming dozens of times stronger than Goku as soon as he hit Super Saiyan.

So you think one example defines how the entire series works?

Piccolo was about one million against Freeza while Goku was three million. This continued the trend all the way back since they first met of Goku being just a bit better. Just a bit stronger when they fought, nearly equal at Raditz but Goku slightly ahead, 3500 vs 8000+ against the saiyans and finally Freeza. So Goku was growing at least as fast and generally faster. But then the Freeza arc ended and Goku's effective strength was 150 million or so. Against 19 and 20 suddenly Piccolo is good enough to take on Gero while Vegeta in SS, who is Goku levelish, takes out 19. You see the problem here? That means Piccolo must be dozens of times stronger than Vegeta or Goku in base.

It isn't so black and white. This is a pretty big debate in the Dragon Ball fandom, and 19/20's strength is really hard to evaluate. Sick SS Goku's strength is pretty pathetic compared to his usual form, and base Vegeta could dent 19's face with a kick. Vegeta also having his energy stolen makes a lot of the comparisons from that point useless.

I think Piccolo is stronger than the base Saiyans by this point, but that doesn't really support your argument about things staying roughly the same. We don't even know how strong Piccolo is, so we can't tell if his standing changed, and this is one example. By your logic, Boo arc Piccolo would have surpassed the regular Super Saiyans instead of being left even further behind. Or the humans would have not been surpassed by thousands of times and left in the dust.

LordofLore Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Consider his love an honor

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