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Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#3351: Sep 11th 2013 at 12:36:42 AM

Movie wishes don't count.

That was a really stupid wish, though. Seriously, Dr. Kochin? Melt a few pieces of ice?

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
NIkkolas from Texas Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#3352: Sep 11th 2013 at 12:46:45 AM

He COULD have wished for supreme power and melted the ice himself but NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.

Let's talk DB vs. DBZ. How many times were the Dragon Balls used in Part 1 compared to how many times they were (ab)used in Part 2? Y Ou got panties, Bora's resurrection, youth, and restoring the moon. I believe that's it for Part 1. So four times.

It's like what, triple that in DBZ?

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#3353: Sep 11th 2013 at 7:07:35 AM

I'm pretty sure resurrections alone account for more than that, but in fairness, some of those resurrections came from Porunga.

Vegeta's "Saiyans get stronger when we almost die" thing really bugs me, the more I think about it. ~.~ This completely devalues all of the Training Sequences in the rest of the series. They're pointless. Completely, absolutely pointless.

If you can get a 450% power increase by having Krillin blow a hole in you and then healing, just do that. Goku could become more powerful than Bills in under a day just by spamming this. Have Gohan punch a hole in his stomach, then nom a Senzu Bean, and repeat ad nauseum. It's an easy, repeatable God Mode Cheat.

Why does this exist?

edited 11th Sep '13 7:07:51 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Cider The Final ECW Champion from Not New York Since: May, 2009 Relationship Status: They can't hide forever. We've got satellites.
The Final ECW Champion
#3354: Sep 11th 2013 at 10:26:50 AM

The training sequences work on the same principle. You break your muscles and bone structure down through physical exertion, close but not quite to the breaking point. Then you rest and your muscles grow back thicker, your bones rebuild harder, you become stronger.

That is just the physical body naturally, but it is natural all the same. I figure with beings who can generate their own KI it is the same principle but in a more metaphysical sense. Push my spirit close to the edge of this world then let it come back stronger.

The question is, why not does this only work for saiyans? Not abusing it is pretty simple. The more you work out, the more your body gets used to it and you have to work harder to get results. Now apply that same logic to near death experiences. Besides the safety of escalating that, it probably would not be too good for your sanity. The training probably does not get results as quickly but it is probably for the better. Sports are dangerous enough as is.

Modified Ura-nage, Torture Rack
FOFD Since: Apr, 2013
#3355: Sep 11th 2013 at 1:43:45 PM

Nobody likes having holes put through them. Then there's having the precision to not land a blow that kills the target outright. Even Vegeta only abused this once.

edited 11th Sep '13 1:44:46 PM by FOFD

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#3356: Sep 11th 2013 at 1:45:19 PM

Also, Vegeta had a Dende to heal him. Senzu beans are probably a bit weaker in effect.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#3357: Sep 11th 2013 at 2:31:03 PM

Still seems worth it to quadruple your power every time you do it. Seriously, they could have been ready to fight the Androids in an afternoon of just doing this over and over.

And once Buu shows up, they have Dende on-hand. If Senzu Beans aren't up to snuff, they could have done this in the Lookout. Half an hour of K Oing Vegeta or Gohan and Dende healing him could have ended the entire conflict in an afternoon.

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HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#3358: Sep 11th 2013 at 3:34:51 PM

Consider that the one time Vegeta purposely invoked it was in a very VERY desperate situation.

And he nearly made a huge miscalculation (Dende not wanting to heal him) and died.

The Nearly die and grow stronger after healing trick has it's drawbacks truthfully.

One Strip! One Strip!
Cider The Final ECW Champion from Not New York Since: May, 2009 Relationship Status: They can't hide forever. We've got satellites.
The Final ECW Champion
#3359: Sep 11th 2013 at 3:53:09 PM

It quadrupled his power the first time sure, but as said, with exercise you eventually level off unless you increase the output. Think about that in regards to near death. Inorder to see increased power gains they would have to bring Vegeta closer and closer to death...and that kind of thing is not exactly healthy for the psyche, do you want to be risking that in a guy who can destroy entire planets even if you think you can get continuously closer without killing him outright?

Modified Ura-nage, Torture Rack
FOFD Since: Apr, 2013
#3360: Sep 11th 2013 at 4:11:57 PM

On paper, if this were an RPG, I would wholeheartedly agree.

With the Androids, yeah, they could have abused the Saiyan regen glitch. But I would be very amused to see the conversation between Goku and Chi-Chi.

Goku: Okay, Chi Chi, you and I both love our son right? Chi-Chi: Right... Goku: And we BOTH want to see him reach his full potential, right? Chi-Chi: Right... Goku: Okay so here's the thing. Vegeta told me about how Saiyans get stronger every time we almost die and...

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#3361: Sep 11th 2013 at 5:35:35 PM

It quadrupled his power the first time sure, but as said, with exercise you eventually level off unless you increase the output. Think about that in regards to near death. Inorder to see increased power gains they would have to bring Vegeta closer and closer to death...and that kind of thing is not exactly healthy for the psyche, do you want to be risking that in a guy who can destroy entire planets even if you think you can get continuously closer without killing him outright?

Actually, that was the...hold on a sec....

  • Defeated on Earth, made him strong enough to kill Cui and Dodoria
  • Defeated by Zarbon, comes back and oneshots Zarbon
  • Defeated by Reccoome, comes back strong enough to fight Frieza's First Form

Getting shot in the chest by Krillin was the fourth time he used it, that we know of.

edited 11th Sep '13 5:36:24 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
sockpuppet1 Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#3362: Sep 11th 2013 at 10:16:07 PM

Defeated by Zarbon, comes back and oneshots Zarbon

Defeated by Reccoome, comes back strong enough to fight Frieza's First Form

Except neither of these things happened.

Still seems worth it to quadruple your power every time you do it. Seriously, they could have been ready to fight the Androids in an afternoon of just doing this over and over.

According to the guidebooks, near death healing boosts just stopped happening, or, when they did happen, were so small as to be unnoticeable, after SS was achieved. So no zenkai abuse for you.

If you can get a 450% power increase by having Krillin blow a hole in you and then healing, just do that. Goku could become more powerful than Bills in under a day just by spamming this. Have Gohan punch a hole in his stomach, then nom a Senzu Bean, and repeat ad nauseum. It's an easy, repeatable God Mode Cheat.

That would be a good tactic. Which is why Goku does it. Until they become irrelevant, of course.

I've been wondering, does a fusion from the potara earrings result in a stronger being than from the dance? Elder Kai's says it's better, but I don't think it's specified if that is due to the lack of a time limit or also due to a bigger power increase.

Yes, Potara is so much stronger than the dance that it's not even funny. Elder Kai specifically says that "the effect is greater" with the Potara (obviously referring to the power increase, as this was in the context of discussing its validity against Buutenks), and numerous guides back this up with the constant "Potara is even better than fusion" stuff. It's so superior that, while Goku was wondering what level of SS "Gokan" would need to beat Buutenks (after already hearing about how much stronger the Potara were than the dance, mind) Elder Kai said that he's drastically underestimating the power of this particular method, and that a Gohan-Goku fusion would probably be able to do it in base. "The Potara's power is just that amazing!".

The Potara's power is such that it allows a mere Super Saiyan, Vegetto, to lay a smackdown on Buuhan, something that likely not even SS 3 Gogeta would've been capable of. If Goten and Trunks had fused with the Potara, they likely would've been able to do exactly what Vegetto did.

edited 11th Sep '13 10:18:06 PM by sockpuppet1

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#3363: Sep 12th 2013 at 10:44:02 PM

So hey. Battle of Gods is coming to Australia from September - October, we'll be the first country to get an English sub of it. Finally, Australia gets something first, even if that something is really shitty.

I guess I'll post my thoughts after I see it.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#3364: Sep 13th 2013 at 10:31:32 PM

Except neither of these things happened.

...except yes they did.

Zarbon beat Vegeta to a bloody mess, then took him back to Frieza's ship to recuperate in one of those healing chamber things they have. Vegeta broke out, stole the Dragon Balls, and when Zarbon pursued him, Vegeta effortlessly slaughtered him.

Recoome also thoroughly demolished Vegeta. Goku gave Vegeta a Senzu Bean to heal him, which made him powerful enough to effortlessly slaughter Jeice, fight Possessed Goku, finish off Captain Ginyu, and then go toe-to-toe with Frieza's base form and force him to transform into his Second Form. Vegeta abusing the crap out of this boost is how he went from getting his ass kicked by Zarbon to throwing down with Frieza in a span of six days.

According to the guidebooks, near death healing boosts just stopped happening, or, when they did happen, were so small as to be unnoticeable, after SS was achieved. So no zenkai abuse for you.

According to the actual series, nada, because it's never brought up again after Namek. Also, "it just conveniently stopped happening for no reason" is a terrible excuse.

That would be a good tactic. Which is why Goku does it. Until they become irrelevant, of course.

Goku's never done that tactic.

edited 13th Sep '13 10:34:36 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#3365: Sep 13th 2013 at 10:33:45 PM

Zenkai does get mentioned precisely once after Namek, actually.

Super Perfect Cell, remember?

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#3366: Sep 13th 2013 at 10:36:25 PM

Is THAT what Super Perfect was about?

Huh. I never actually caught that. That actually kind of makes sense.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
sockpuppet1 Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#3367: Sep 14th 2013 at 3:23:47 AM

Zarbon beat Vegeta to a bloody mess, then took him back to Frieza's ship to recuperate in one of those healing chamber things they have. Vegeta broke out, stole the Dragon Balls, and when Zarbon pursued him, Vegeta effortlessly slaughtered him.

You said Vegeta beat Zarbon in one hit. That didn't happen. He used tactics and surprise to hit Zarbon a shitload of times (and he still implied Zarbon was stronger than him).

Recoome also thoroughly demolished Vegeta. Goku gave Vegeta a Senzu Bean to heal him, which made him powerful enough to effortlessly slaughter Jeice, fight Possessed Goku, finish off Captain Ginyu, and then go toe-to-toe with Frieza's base form and force him to transform into his Second Form. Vegeta abusing the crap out of this boost is how he went from getting his ass kicked by Zarbon to throwing down with Frieza in a span of six days.

You said that he fought Freeza's first form. That didn't happen. Freeza just caught one of Vegeta's punches; then they stared at each other for a few seconds, bounced away, and started talking trash. They never actually fought.

According to the actual series, nada, because it's never brought up again after Namek. Also, "it just conveniently stopped happening for no reason" is a terrible excuse.

They didn't stop happening, they just ceased to be relevant as the powers got bigger.

Goku's never done that tactic.

Yes, he did. He blasted himself with Kamehamehas on the way to Namek. That's how he jumped in power so quickly.

So hey. Battle of Gods is coming to Australia from September - October, we'll be the first country to get an English sub of it. Finally, Australia gets something first, even if that something is really shitty.

Why are you even watching it?

edited 14th Sep '13 3:26:11 AM by sockpuppet1

NIkkolas from Texas Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#3368: Sep 14th 2013 at 4:49:23 AM

[up][up] It always just gave me the Headscratcher of "why doesn't he just keep blowing himself up and increasing his power immeasurably each time?"

The answer of course is that both the dub and the original explanations for Cell's coming back have holes.

In the original, the nucleus in his head doesn't work because his head was quite clearly obliterated by Goku earlier on. Nevertheless, if it is this one specific body part that must remain intact for him to regenerate like that, we can assume the fact it wasn't destroyed when he blew himself up was a fluke. No way he's gonna risk blowing himself up again and againa nd take the chance of it actually damaging this super-vital part of his body.

On the other hand, the dub says that as long as any cell at all remains of his body, he will always regenerate. This clears up the nucleus plothole but introduces the problem of why he didn't just keep self-destructing until he was Super Saiyan 8.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#3369: Sep 14th 2013 at 8:30:20 AM

[up]

Actually, for the last one, we can just assume that even he didn't know he could come back when he was destroyed like that until he'd done it.

So it's possible there's no pothole.

One Strip! One Strip!
theweirdKiddokun What a Wonderful World! from Last Place in the Race Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
What a Wonderful World!
#3370: Sep 14th 2013 at 9:01:41 AM

[up][up][up]...What are you talking about? Zarbon and Vegeta were equal before Zarbon transform, but after Zarbon beat the crap out of Vegeta and almost killed him. When Zarbon transform again to fight Vegeta he thought he was going to win again easily, but Vegeta after gain his boost killed Zarbon in about two moves.

edited 14th Sep '13 9:01:53 AM by theweirdKiddokun

The Reaper Games starts anew.
Cider The Final ECW Champion from Not New York Since: May, 2009 Relationship Status: They can't hide forever. We've got satellites.
The Final ECW Champion
#3371: Sep 14th 2013 at 10:03:42 AM

Goku blasting himself with Kamehamehas was not supposed to be a way of bringing himself close to death though. Probably just something he came up with to keep exercise interesting or maybe just to prepare himself for cases were he might come against energy blasts, as they were getting more prominent at that point in the story. It was around Namek they really became a standard thing actually.

Modified Ura-nage, Torture Rack
sockpuppet1 Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#3372: Sep 14th 2013 at 11:24:00 AM

[up][up][up]...What are you talking about? Zarbon and Vegeta were equal before Zarbon transform, but after Zarbon beat the crap out of Vegeta and almost killed him. When Zarbon transform again to fight Vegeta he thought he was going to win again easily, but Vegeta after gain his boost killed Zarbon in about two moves.

No, Vegeta only beat Zarbon because Zarbon was overconfident; Vegeta didn't even make a big deal of his new power, and focused mostly on Zarbon being confident from his last victory and coming at him off guard. So when Zarbon attacked, he came sloppily, allowing Vegeta to throw sand in his eyes. With Zarbon stunned, he followed this up with a punch to the back, a double axe handle, a kick, another punch, a shitload of ki blasts, and one final punch to the chest (because the other blasts dropped his powers immensely, because off guard hits = pain in Dragon Ball). He did not beat him in two moves, and he certainly didn't one-shot him.

If he was stronger than Zarbon, even by a marginal amount (since Zarbon was unskilled enough that equal battle powers let Vegeta own the crap out of him), he wouldn't have bothered doing any of this.

Goku blasting himself with Kamehamehas was not supposed to be a way of bringing himself close to death though. Probably just something he came up with to keep exercise interesting or maybe just to prepare himself for cases were he might come against energy blasts, as they were getting more prominent at that point in the story. It was around Namek they really became a standard thing actually.

Except the narrator said that abusing his healing boosts was exactly what Goku was doing.

Chapter: 270 (DBZ 76), P8.3-4

Context: Narrator commenting on Goku’s increasing strength.

Narrator: “The 7 senzu he received from Lord Karin have already fallen to only 3…However, though this training is outrageous, perhaps Goku has somehow realized the Saiyan characteristic of their strength increasing when they overcome death…”

edited 14th Sep '13 11:25:24 AM by sockpuppet1

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#3373: Sep 14th 2013 at 12:09:18 PM

I did wonder why Cell didn't just keep blowing up until he was Super Saiyan 8, but I figure even ONE cell of his body, whether a nucleus cell or a random skin cell or somesuch, surviving the blast was an absolute fluke, and something he didn't want to risk again. Keep in mind his initial explosion was not only powerful enough to destroy a whole planet (Which would mean that, at the epicenter of the blast, his cells are the least likely thing to survive), but was specifically done with the intent of ending himself and everything around him. You can think of it like a Happily Failed Suicide for Cell. Not for anyone else, but for him at least.

edited 14th Sep '13 12:09:57 PM by Anomalocaris20

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
FireShadow (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#3374: Sep 14th 2013 at 3:13:41 PM

For those who question why Cell didn't blow himself up and regenerate and become like a super saiyan 8, it's simple... Cell's biological structure makes receiving zenkai's almost impossible or impractical. Think about about, a blast to the chest or even blowing up his own head aren't good enough to qualify as a near death experience because he has more than enough cell's as back-up for him to regenerate continuously, so as far as a near death experience goes, which is were you get the huge zenkai's, it doesn't count. For him to have a true near death experience he would have to put himself in a situation where only a few cells of him remain, that literally reduces his chance of survival to 0.001%, it's more of suicidal method of gaining a power boost then what Goku and Vegeta ever put themselves through. Hell, Cell even admitted it was fluke he survived, I don't think he would try to blow himself up again if he though he could get a power boost, knowing he'll pretty much kill himself... it's not worth it.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#3375: Sep 14th 2013 at 3:29:47 PM

Also, I just want to add that after the ki blast spam, Vegeta comments that Zarbon doesn't stand a chance because his battle power has fallen significantly. Highly implied that Zarbon was actually still stronger than him.

@Sockpuppet Why bother? Well I've never seen Dragon Ball on the big screen, and I've heard the animation for the final battle is pretty sweet. Oh, and a friend of mine wants to see it.


Random thought I had today. If you ignore the times the Dragon Balls are used as damage control, they're relevant the exact same amount in both pre and post Z, both have them related to 50% of the plots of the arcs (3/6 for pre-Z and 2/4 for Z) although they're also kind of relevant in the 23rd Budokai and Android arcs, making them more relevant in Z than they were pre-Z.

edited 14th Sep '13 3:53:35 PM by Saiga


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