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Stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Goku and Gotenks. Goku said he was no much for Evil Boo, Gotenks was winning, and Gohan stomped him.
@Tobias Because Goku needed something to fight Fat Boo when SS2 wouldn't cut it, it looked cool, and it was probably to show the flaws of taking Super Saiyan too far, like with the Graded forms earlier.
edited 7th Aug '13 4:17:44 PM by Saiga
No, it took a lot longer than one year. Seven years of training with the androids plus another in the time chamber. That state they fought Cell in was the mastered Super Saiyan (Aka Ascended Saiyan or Super Saiyan Full Power)
And Gohan clearly had not mastered Super Saiyan 2, despite his growth spurt and signs he was obviously keeping in shape he was weaker than he was as a little kid, which was not too surprising because Gohan was only at his strongest when enraged, which seemed to get happen less as he got older. The whole "mystic/ultimate" thing wasn't old Kai making Gohan stronger, it was his hidden potential, the old guy just took away the need to transform (and presumably the need to get mad)
Modified Ura-nage, Torture RackWait, what are you referring to with mastering it? I was only talking about the RoSaT training, he wasn't trying to master the form before that. If you're referring to him mastering the transformation, that happened before he came back from Yardrat.
There's no "mastering" Super Saiyan 2, but Gohan clearly could transform at will, as he did. He just couldn't draw out his dormant power through anger like he did as a kid. Old Kaioshin drew out all his dormant power but that's nothing to do with Super Saiyan 2.
edited 7th Aug '13 7:39:26 PM by Saiga
See, I'm not sure why he needed to be able to fight Fat Buu when the story intended for him not to defeat Fat Buu. Imagine if, instead of revealing SSJ 3, sparring with Buu for a little while, and then leaving because he wanted other people to defeat Buu despite the fact that he could have done it himself, he had instead simply revealed that he could now power up to SSJ 2, but like Gohan, just was not powerful enough to defeat Buu and, defeated, was forced to escape with Instant Transmission.
Would the story be hurt by Goku not being powerful enough to overcome Fat Buu? Would the characters be hurt by it?
edited 8th Aug '13 10:10:05 AM by TobiasDrake
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
If you ask me, the story got hit by Fridge Logic when it turned out that Goku could have gone SSJ-3 when he fought Vegeta. If he had done that, he would have been able to stop Boo from being revived in short order. Vegeta later on did call out Goku for holding back on him.
He did, but he did so in more of a, "What the hell?! You let me believe I was winning, you asshole!" rather than the more relevant, "What the hell?! You allowed Majin Buu to be restored to power!"
To be fair, the latter would be incredibly hypocritical of Vegeta to call Goku out on. They both suffered a severe case of - not Idiot Ball, because this was completely in-character for both of them - extreme dumbass when it came to Majin Buu.
That, more than anything, is the biggest problem I have with the Cell and Buu Sagas; the fact that it feels that the villains just aren't threatening on their own. The only reason they ever became so dangerous is because the protagonists are idiots who actively help them achieve their goals. Goku is brain-damaged and makes consistently terrible decisions, Vegeta is a prideful dick who makes consistently terrible decisions, and nobody else is powerful enough for any decision they make to affect the plot in any way. We are left with an Idiot Plot fueled by Goku and Vegeta's terrible decisions.
Frieza, at least, didn't need Goku and Vegeta to help him beat them in order to be threatening, with the sole exception of Goku allowing Frieza to reach his Full Power.
edited 8th Aug '13 11:18:37 AM by TobiasDrake
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.Early story-Majin Buu should be either slightly stronger or slightly weaker than Kid Buu, right?
If that was the case, I don't think Goku even at SSJ 3 would've beat him fast enough in the time he has on Earth or Beat him at all. Him turning SSJ 3 to fight Buu wouldn't have made a difference if he couldn't beat him fast enough and considering how much Buu was enjoying it compared to Gotenks(who was weaker), I'd say he had to be stronger by a small/fair amount. Stopping the fight was a good call on Goku's part because if he didn't, he'd not have anytime to give the demonstration of the Fusion technique or start Goten&Trunks' training if the worse case scenario happened(which it didn't and yet an even worse one happened).
edited 8th Aug '13 11:28:23 AM by randomness4
Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.Fat Majin Buu is a weaker figher than Kid Buu.
He may have more dormant power due to absorbtions, it's just the Dai Kaio's personality he absorbed also seems to act as a Restraining Bolt keeping him even weaker than he was before.
Super Buu is essentially Buu being able to tap into all the power he absorbed.
Goku at Super Saiyan 3 is stronger than both Fat Buu and Kid Buu, it's just in both cases he stalled.
edited 8th Aug '13 1:40:48 PM by Anomalocaris20
You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!He wasn't even SSJ 3 for like half the fight with Kid Buu. He was mainly SSJ(or 2).
Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.Particularly dumb filler. Canonically, he went SS 3 immediately and fought Buu for a couple minutes before giving up and realizing he had no chance, and that Buu was toying with him. Then he tried to get Vegeta to distract Buu while he charged a big energy blast, but that plan failed miserably and he reverted to base.
I was under the impression he could have won if he fought his hardest as SSJ 3, but stalled to try and give Vegeta a chance or something, and as a result lost too much power to finish Buu off. Unless I'm misremembering.
edited 8th Aug '13 2:12:38 PM by Anomalocaris20
You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!Maybe that was the case in the anime or dub. Canonically he went full force from the start and just lost. Vegeta brings up the possibility that Goku was holding back to give him a chance, but Goku denies it and says Buu is just too strong/resilient.
Oh, and Super can't tap in to ALL the power he absorbed. A tiny bit of it is still sealed away.
edited 8th Aug '13 2:19:14 PM by sockpuppet1
Well, yes, but he's significantly stronger and unchained. The only real restraint he seems to still have is a hesitation to kill Mr. Satan.
I like how his gluttony as Fat Buu goes from somewhat endearing (Except when he turns people into food) to downright horrifying as Super Buu.
You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!@Tobias Because Super Saiyan 2 was nowhere near enough. He already fought Vegeta as a Super Saiyan 2, and they were even. Vegeta got his shit wrecked by Boo, so Goku would have gotten stomped. The only other solution would be to go without the fight... so we miss out on a fight and a cool transformation and gain nothing for it.
I think the only problem with Super Saiyan 3 was when Goku was retconned later on into being able to defeat Fat Boo all along. If it wasn't for that, it would have been fine, and it would have shown just how Boo is on a completely different level for them to get this season's Super Saiyan form and go "Oh shit, that actually won't cut it". But the whole Pure Boo thing is full of bad retcons so w/e.
@Tiggers Yeah, that's true. He did say that he really didn't want to use it, though, because of the risk involved and he wasn't used to it. Even when people were talking about options for fighting Boo he didn't bring it up because of how reluctant he was, only bringing it out when Boo needed to be stalled so they could get the Dragon Radar.
@Anom As Sockpuppet said, the explanation you're thinking of comes from Vegeta, but Goku denies it and explains he's been trying to finish Boo from the start and just failing.
edited 8th Aug '13 4:53:36 PM by Saiga
Goku fights Fat Buu and is surprised both at the fact he risked permanent destruction fighting him, even at Super Saiyan and furthermore that Super Saiyan cut into his time in the world of the living. (Basally he was in over his head in more ways than one)
Later, after watching Majin Buu and getting used to how he operates, on top of watching Buu kill/absorb his family, friends and the entire world without being able to do anything about it Goku thinks back to Fat Buu (he really was not so bad compared to super, I really should have been able to beat him, I should have tried harder)
So he goes in against Kid Buu thinking I will give it my all this time and win...and still does not win because he still underestimated just Buu's regeneration, which was superior even to Cells. (And, to be fair, I do not think Goku saw the fight in the time chamber, so there was not much reason for him to expect the guy to regenerate from vapors after being vaporized).
Maybe it really was a Retcon? The thought never really crossed my mind until I heard it in this thread. Before that it just seemed like Goku's was mistaken.
Modified Ura-nage, Torture RackNow here's the real question; after reviving everyone on earth, why didn't they just bring Gohan in to kick Kid Buu's face into subatomic particles? Considering how badly Super Buu did, Kid wouldn't stand a ghost of a chance. The whole risk and pain of the Spirit Bomb plan just seems sorta stupid, especially in light of both Goku and Vegeta swallowing their pride already anyway.
Granted, it's more intense that way, but I wonder about it from a Watsonian perspective.
You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!Goku asks about that, and Vegeta says he wants to make the Earthlings help out for once. He didn't realize they wouldn't be so willing to help, or that Goku wouldn't have the strength to throw it.
But it's still not a very good idea when Gohan coming and curb-stomping Boo would have just been quicker and easier.
That's why, although the battle and Spirit Bomb ending would have been good, I just really can't appreciate it any more. Too many retcons to get there and the only reason there is any tension is because both Goku and Vegeta refuse to do things the easy way.

I imagine that Goku had not really mastered it yet. Gotenks and Super Buu seem to have an easier time with it. It took seven+ years for him to fully master the first Super Saiyan form and Gohan seemingly lost ability to use the second one. (Gohan never really controlled it, or anything really. Just make him angry enough then hope that works)
Modified Ura-nage, Torture Rack