...no, I don't know what movie is supposed to suggest that, but - at least in the anime, I don't know about the manga - during the fight with Kid Buu, the point was made that SSJ 3 Goku could have defeated Kid Buu but threw the fight so that Vegeta could have a chance to do it, while SSJ 2 Vegeta ultimately got his ass handed to him.
Majin Vegeta might be stronger than SSJ 2 Goku, but Goku threw THAT fight too, so it's inconclusive.
Goku never tries to win anymore after Freeza.
edited 4th Aug '13 4:46:40 AM by TobiasDrake
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.Considering how there's no naturally born villain in the universe that could give goku a chance at that point, why should he try?
Watch SymphogearI'm talking about Battle of the Gods. I'll only watch it dubbed. From what I hear, Vegeta managed to do more damage to Bills through brute force than SS 3 Goku ever did.
Oh, well then.
So seeing as every universe has its own God of destruction, it is now my headcanon that the God of Destruction for the GT universe was Omega Shenron. He certainly fits the bill.
edited 4th Aug '13 7:15:07 AM by Cruherrx
"If you weren't so crazy I'd think you were insane."Maybe Toriyama was giving Super Saiyan 3 a Take That!.
- Super Saiyan: Awesomeness.
- Super Saiyan 2: Double the awesomeness.
- Super Saiyan 3: Actually impractical, unwieldy, gimmicky, and ultimately pointless.
- Super Saiyan 4: Yes, I know its status in the canon is dubious, and it doesn't really fit considering that Vegeta became Super Saiyan 4 without even reaching Super Saiyan 3. Besides, I think it would have been better to call it "Super Saiyan Beast".
I doubt Goku would have been able to beat Beers/Bills even if he tried Super Saiyan 4.
He tries to win and he loses plenty of times. Against 19, Cell, a Cell Junior, Kid Buu...
I think that the anime thing might be dub only. In the manga Vegeta says that Goku was just stalling so Vegeta'd get a turn, and that he should cut it out, because Vegeta doesn't have a chance anyway. But Goku says "No, I'm really trying, I just can't win".
To me, Dragon Ball is a prime example of why you have to look carefully over multiple versions of the story. You have so many different versions saying so many different things between them that you can get headaches trying to keep track of it all.
How about Dragon Ball GT? I know that one is infamous for plot holes to the point of being called "GT logic". However, a number of the plot holes occurred because they were based off of lines from the original DBZ Funimation dub, which really did not match up to what was said in the original version. That, and a number of the contradictions occurred with DBZ filler, and if you just take out the filler, you would have less plot holes.
Still, there are some plot holes that are quite interesting:
- Dr. Myuu creates Machine Mutants and his crowning achievement is a Machine Mutant named Baby. But then a shocking swerve occurs where the doctor gets killed off and Baby reveals that he was the one who created Myuu! It's later revealed that Baby is apparently a creation of the Tuffles. But here's a question: how does an inactive little fetus in a tank create a Machine Mutant scientist?
- Gohan turning Super Saiyan despite becoming Mystic/Ultimate years ago is often cited as a plot hole. Although a critical point to make here is that Gohan can still go Super Saiyan but he doesn't need to. And here's another question: did they ever say that the Mystic/Ultimate form is permanent? Because if it isn't, then it would have worn off and Gohan would have to go back to using Super Saiyan.
- Bad guys come out of Hell with physical bodies. Aren't they supposed to be formless spirits? If they retained their bodies, then they would be doing lots of level grinding for all those years.
- Piccolo sacrifices himself to make sure to Black Star Dragon Balls will never be used again. But wait, control over the Dragon Balls got switched to Dende, didn't they? So shouldn't Dende be the one to make the sacrifice?
That last one is not a plot hole. The Black Star Dragon Balls were created by the original nameless Namekian. They went inert after they split into Kami and Piccolo, but their reunion essentially counted as the original creator being "revived", so they became active again.
They were never passed to Dende.
You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!"It doesn't make a bit of difference, Guys. The Balls are inert."
I still love that meme.
Watch SymphogearWell, who doesn't love inert balls?
Well, maybe the guy who has them, but he don't count.
edited 4th Aug '13 8:43:33 PM by HandsomeRob
One Strip! One Strip!To answer two. We don't know if Gohan lost the ability to transform. Back when we were talking about GT a lot, Saiga and I talk about this topic a lot. Old Kai only said that transforming is the wrong way to go about things. GT is based on the anime made by Toei while Funimation only change some of the dialogue and some of parts of the scene (for censorship) they can't change everything.
The Reaper Games starts anew.I thought I remembered something about "Mystic Gohan" replacing Gohan's SSJ transformation entirely; that Gohan triggered it the same way he would trigger his SSJ, but Mystic Gohan is what happens instead. I don't think anyone ever said he can't transform again, but it's implied in the fact that his transformation was replaced by the new form.
That being said, retconning something that was implied is at a much lower level of heresy than retconning something that was directly established.
edited 4th Aug '13 9:25:47 PM by TobiasDrake
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.No, Old Kaioshin said "do that Super Saiyan thing" and Gohan turned Mystic/Ultimate, and was then told that Super Saiyan was the wrong way of doing things. Also, if he could go Super Saiyan, then he'd do it against Bootenks, unless turning Super Saiyan didn't make him stronger any more. But if turning Super Saiyan didn't make him stronger, he wouldn't do it in GT because it's wasting energy for nothing.
So matter which way you slice it, it's inconsistent.
Then again, unless it's movies, Toei's animation budget tends to go down the crapper really fast, especially in long runners.
Or if it's a collaboration, like when Dragon Ball's anime director directed one of the Teoi animated shorts in Halo Legends........
Watch Symphogear"Wow, it's like fighting a marshmallow!"
.......Hilarious in Hindsight.
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.I just watched the first half of Tien vs Yamcha too.
Always liked the animation for Yamcha's Wolf Fang Fist.
edited 6th Aug '13 7:16:22 PM by FOFD
Wasn't the thing with SS 3 the whole he never used it in a living body so he underestimated the strain and power consumption it would use?
Yeah. SS 3 was always high maintenance. When Goku came back to life, he wasn't able to actually keep it up for very long.
His best chance was the first time he used it, when he fought Fat Buu, but he wasted that.
Considering that using it burned up his time on Earth, we probably should have caught the clues earlier.
SS 2 seems like the best form in the long run. Simply up you base power as much as possible, and use that instead.
One Strip! One Strip!Super Saiyan 3 being so awful, I'm confused as to why it even exists, both from a Doylist and a Watsonian perspective.
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.

How?