No. I mentioned this last page
, but Piccolo couldn't sense how strong Vegeta was because Vegeta wasn't fighting. Even though Vegeta's not masking his power, you can't effectively measure someone's ki unless they're fighting.
edited 28th Nov '15 12:11:40 AM by Saiga
Gohan and Krillin were able to sense how obscenely powerful Freeza was just from him flying by. You can sense someone's powerlevel even if they're not fighting. If you couldn't, Goku would be unable to use IT.
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I never said they can't sense someone's ki at all unless they fight, but it's not as accurate as when they are fighting. Again, we have the example of Piccolo not knowing how strong Vegeta is when he's standing there.
Freeza was on a completely different level, and even then they still weren't sensing his full power (for that form).
Nobody truly knew how strong Nappa was until he started fighting, same for Vegeta. Later this happens with Super Saiyan Goku before he learned to control himself in the form.
Scouters don't have that problem, which is one of the few advantages they have. They're very precise when they're not being deliberately fooled.
I think it might not so much be the powerlevel itself that they can't accurately gauge, but how strong someone is when they're actually using it.
Powerlevels aren't everything in a fight, and Nappa himself is proof of it. The difference between him and Piccolo is so small that the addition of Krillin really should've been able to bridge it, but Nappa's a juggernaut who was clearly and significantly more skilled than they were, so he was able to fight them off easily. Similarly, he was able to not instantly die against an opponent that was over twice his powerlevel.
So they could tell what Nappa's powerlevel is - just not how effective he is at using it until he started using it.
edited 28th Nov '15 6:35:12 AM by IAmNotCreativeEnough
himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimariNo, that's not true at all.
Again.
Again.
Piccolo could not tell who was stronger out of Nappa and Vegeta from sensing their ki.
I don't know how many times I will have to repeat that, but there it is. Piccolo had to deduce that Vegeta was stronger from the way the two acted, and that's a difference between 4,000 and 18,000. That's not a difference of skill or using power effectively.
The irony is, the concept of Power Levels was introduced in the first place to show that, alone, they're worthless in deciding the outcome of a fight.
Toriyama gave us a pile of straw, and we all just love to roll in it.
edited 28th Nov '15 6:54:34 AM by BaffleBlend
"It's liberating, realizing you never need to be competent." — Ultimatepheer[citation needed]
Lot of people like to claim that, but there's nothing to official to back it up. If that's what Toriyama intended he failed hard because he has many fights that are determined purely on battle power.
The only official word is that the Saiyan arc is where Toriyama was trying to introduce new concepts that would boost the manga's popularity, and his editor was trying to escalate the fights. Given how popular Power Levels are in Japanese works, and how effective they were for power escalation, they could definitely be a product of either or both of these directions.
When you understand what Power Levels actually are (just a number that determines how powerful you are) you realize that they never went away, they just stopped being documented.
When I read the manga, I did not see a single instance of Piccolo comparing Vegeta and Nappa's powerlevels.
Granted, I didn't read it in Moonrunes, I read it in Spanish, but Piccolo being unable to tell who's stronger between Vegeta and Nappa doesn't make any sense considering how huge the difference is, given that Vegeta is worth ~4.5 Nappas, IINM. Neither of them can mask or increase their powerlevels. It makes no sense for Piccolo to be unable to tell who's stronger. Particularly when Vegeta's hanging back and giving orders, and the Saiyans have so far displayed that the closest thing to morality they have is Might Makes Right.
edited 28th Nov '15 8:07:01 AM by IAmNotCreativeEnough
himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimariThey probably don't remember. Bardock and Gine having a romantic relationship at all, for example, was the exception and not the rule.
"It's liberating, realizing you never need to be competent." — UltimatepheerWait, the editor was the one who wanted the power scale to increase? You mean someone sat down and read a comic book where people were capable of moving and talking faster than the eye and ear can perceive, shoot ki, produce electricity, transform into a giant werewolf monkey, destroy the moon and continue to fight butt naked and then said "You know, I don't think these characters are powerful enough, after Piccolo Jr.
But that last one you did was so much stronger, why can't it be more like that? Knew I shouldn't have made that poo and a stick joke. Okay, here's Senbei in the comic musing that it's been a long time and Goku wants to become as strong as Arale. Oh, and an assassin that is immune to the Kamehameha and travels by pillar. Happy? Series over...no wait, we're getting extended. What now. Stronger, stronger! Here's a guy like the pillar assassin but stronger. What? Okay here's the devil. Fine, the devil's son will be stronger than the devil for some reason. Here's Goku's older brother. Here's Goku's general. Here's Goku's planet destroying prince. Here is the strongest guy in the universe...oops, over did it a bit. Here's Super Sentai, now here's the strongest guy in the universe. Now we slow down, battle a mad scientist... What do you mean, draining energy isn't cool enough. Okay, here, they don't get tired...he has everyone's techniques...he's bigger...he has armor...forget him then. Here is an undefeated threat to the universe. What, how do I go up from that? Sorry, I'm done.
No wait, I got it, weak villains, wouldn't that be a breath of fresh air! Fine, here's your galaxy destroying cat! That's crazy, he should be a universe destroying cat! Knew I shouldn't have hinted there was more than one...but I thought ahead this time, Goku surpassed the devil, and his older brother, and his general and his prince, and the strongest guy in the universe and five weapons in development for over a decade for the sole purpose of killing him. And a monster with all his powers plus everyone else's. And the undefeated terror of the universe BUT NOT THIS TIME. Goku loses, he cannot beat this cat. He'd need to be two Gokus to stand a chance. Now let's go back to that Freezer.
Buldogue's lawyerOkay, just read the Viz translation of the manga. Piccolo indeed has no idea how strong Vegeta actually is. He just guesses that Vegeta's stronger based on how Nappa reacts to him.
Hell, Vegeta may actually have the ability to suppress his ki. He already knows of it and it's a completely separate ability from ki sensing.
Let the joy of love give you an answer! Check out my book!But he did. There's also Goku flat out saying he didn't realize how strong Vegeta was until he saw, or I guess it's more accurately to say felt, Vegeta blow up Nappa so that also lets you know they can't totally accurately judge someones strength until they're in action.
edited 28th Nov '15 11:25:14 AM by LSBK
So the Scouters are more accurate provided the person isn't hiding their power, but Ki-sensing can't be fooled by things like not actively using your power but not suppressing it.
Makes me think the characters should use both, but people kept crushing or destroying every single scouter in the series.
One Strip! One Strip!Scouters give you an exact number. Ki gives you an approximation, presumably relative to yourself. I mean, I can't tell the difference between a million and a billion ants by looking at them even though one is a thousand times more than the other. If you weighed them or something and knew how much the average ant weighed you could get a more specific number.
But sometimes you have ninja ants that trick the scale.
edited 28th Nov '15 12:15:26 PM by Arha
Asshole ants, more like it.
And the only line I do recall is that one about them fearing Vegeta being even worse than Nappa. Translation induced hole? Possibly. Could be on either end, don't really know and don't care. It's such a minor thing that it's quite probable that something like that would happen.
himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari

Don't they use Ki as a way of buffing defense? They use their ki as a way of reducing damage to the body while on guard.
When not consciously doing that, they're just as vulnerable as any normal body is to pain.
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