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Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#28726: Nov 18th 2015 at 11:55:42 PM

here was an opponent who, despite being weaker than Goku, was a far more skilled fighter

Bollocks. Not once did he display superior skill. That's the go to Fanon defense for weaker characters, claiming they are more skilled because it's harder to disprove when the series doesn't go into it.

From Yamcha almost beating Goku in a 1-v-1 before Bulma woke up and triggered his gynophobia

The fight was completely mirrored, while Goku was hungry. It's completely up to interpretation who would win, because despite Goku's complaints, he was still able to return everything Yamcha dished out.

to him and Goku being established as the two fighters when Bulma was turned into a carrot by Boss Rabbit

We've seen all of two serious fighters at this point.

to him having prior knowledge of all the martial arts masters and techniques they come across.

We see/hear of three martial artists in that arc. I could name more of that and I don't follow famous martial artists at all.

He may have lost in the 21st Tenkaichi Budokai to Jackie Chun, but his strength and potential was acknowledged

By a one-off line by Goku right before he gets one-shotted by Roshi. Clearly demonstrated as the weakest of everyone there.

His appearence against Baba's fighters makes it clear that training with Roshi has already helped him and he was winning against Invisible Man just by listening for him

Pity we have absolutely no bar to measure the invisible man by. All we know if that a) he's invisible and b) invisible people still make noise. Exploiting that isn't particularly impressive and we have no idea how strong he is. I wouldn't have batted an eyelid at pre-training Yamcha doing that.

his defeat against Mummy is portayed as a hard-fought loss against a superior enemy.

Hard fought my ass, he just gets his butt-whooped. Tripping him is the closest he does to achieving anything and while that would be a hilarious victory that's still not impressive.

Yes he did lose to Tenshinhan in the 22nd but he put up a hell of a fight and him using a Kamehameha is treated as an impressive showing of Yamcha going above and beyond what his training was supposed to be.

But in practice, everyone else from his generation pulled it off without training and without immediately getting worfed for it. Really, his Kamehameha was only built up so Ten would look impressive when he handled it.

Yamcha fighting Kami in the 23rd is just portayed as bad luck and, even so, Yamcha still fights his hardest with Kami even acknowledging his talent when he nails him with the Spirit Ball.

Not just portrayed as bad luck. It's also played for comedy.

Yamcha fights the Saibaman in Krillin's place to be a friend and easily crushes it.

"Easily" meaning "has a much harder time than Tenshinhan, fighting it mostly evenly until he hits it with a point-blank Kamehameha that doesn't even keep it down"

Yamcha's death from explosion is portayed as shocking, sudden, and tragic.

Right, but it's still him getting killed for being extremely cocky and turning his back to an enemy. He actually said he'll take them all on after barely subduing one - and that didn't even last.

Canon Yamcha is a tactical fighter

Who often underestimates his opponents and talks a lot of shit. He's very similar to Vegeta, but he never wins.


I agree that Toriyama didn't INTEND for him to be taken as a joke - most of the time he plays Yamcha's involvement completely straight - but it's so easy to mock him because of how Toriyama failed to make him someone who could be taken seriously. The fandom is just reacting to the events of canon, it doesn't matter how Toriyama wanted us to feel about him, the actual writing works against him.

Him cheating would be incredibly out-of-character: the man had gynophobia

His gynophobia never came up in the manga after his first arc. He was able to get over it with Bulma, and he later hangs around female characters with no apparent problem. He also mentions having a girlfriend in the Cell arc, which could have been a joke, but the joke seems to be more about the necklace than the presence of a girlfriend.

Besides, shy people can cheat as well. And cheaters don't have an obvious "type" IRL so calling it out of character is silly. Any personality type can cheat.

edited 18th Nov '15 11:57:48 PM by Saiga

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#28727: Nov 19th 2015 at 12:06:05 AM

[up]From your perspective. From mine, the writing in the manga does a fine job of establishing Yamcha as someone to be taken seriously, even through all his losses.

Also, I said this last page but even if Yamcha had cheated, I wouldn't blame him as he was in a toxic and abusive relationship.

randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#28728: Nov 19th 2015 at 12:30:42 AM

A relationship that actually provided lots of money.

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PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#28729: Nov 19th 2015 at 12:34:10 AM

Which Yamcha never cared about and probably didn't need, considering his baseball career.

randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#28730: Nov 19th 2015 at 12:38:33 AM

His what?

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#28731: Nov 19th 2015 at 12:51:42 AM

That one thing that wasn't actually in the manga but Toriyama himself suggested it so, unless it's contradicted, I'm assuming it's canon.

BaffleBlend Hey there! Having fun? from Somewhere Since: Dec, 2012 Relationship Status: LET'S HAVE A ZILLION BABIES
Hey there! Having fun?
#28732: Nov 19th 2015 at 4:17:09 AM

Also, money doesn't even close to make up for toxicity and abuse.

In fact, money is often used for abuse. Buying expensive gifts to make the victim think "maybe they're not ALL bad", and making the partner think that, by even considering leaving the relationship, they're "ungrateful" and throwing away the abuser's "generosity".

I'm not accusing Bulma of something of that severity (though she IS a horrible person). I'm just saying.

edited 19th Nov '15 4:32:34 AM by BaffleBlend

"It's liberating, realizing you never need to be competent." — Ultimatepheer
Piando 18's Glomp OF DOOM Since: Jun, 2015
18's Glomp OF DOOM
#28733: Nov 19th 2015 at 4:27:16 AM

Come on guys, we know the best cheater in DBZ: Krillin.

No wonder Krillin named his baby that name. tongue

I love you, Krillin!! -struggling to breathe- I love you as well, honey..
Shlugo_the_great King of Burgers from Far Far Away (On A Trope Odyssey) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
King of Burgers
#28734: Nov 19th 2015 at 4:39:20 AM

Of course the relationship was toxic and abusive. Yamcha was a career criminal to start with, I have no problem believing he would stoop down to domestic abuse. Bulma was just too desperate for a boyfriend to see what kind of bastard she was getting involved with.

[up]Krillin knows better than to cheat on someone who could rip off his junk and force it down his throat.

edited 19th Nov '15 4:40:10 AM by Shlugo_the_great

randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#28735: Nov 19th 2015 at 4:44:03 AM

[up][up][up]Abuse doesn't matter if you're a walking doormat towards the person with the money.

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#28736: Nov 19th 2015 at 4:57:49 AM

[up][up]After Pilaf, Bulma constantly verbally abuses Yamcha and accuses him of cheating every time he ever interacts with someone of the opposite sex even a tiny bit. It's good that he got out.

BaffleBlend Hey there! Having fun? from Somewhere Since: Dec, 2012 Relationship Status: LET'S HAVE A ZILLION BABIES
Hey there! Having fun?
#28737: Nov 19th 2015 at 5:25:12 AM

[up][up]Ugh. Is this really happening? Tell me this isn't really happening.

Abuse makes you a doormat. The victim thinks they're in the best relationship ever if they don't realize they're being abused, and even after they realize it, the abuser does their damnedest to keep them in denial. That's manipulation.

[up][up][up]I think you misread this entire conversation.

edited 19th Nov '15 5:26:26 AM by BaffleBlend

"It's liberating, realizing you never need to be competent." — Ultimatepheer
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#28738: Nov 19th 2015 at 5:53:02 AM

........

This fucking conversation.

It just needs to end. Why is Yamcha even being brought up again?

One Strip! One Strip!
unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#28739: Nov 19th 2015 at 5:54:50 AM

I am not sure I would qualify either of them as abusive.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#28740: Nov 19th 2015 at 6:02:06 AM

Come to think of it, does Bulma ever mistreat Yamcha on screen?

I'm near positive he never does that to her, but outside of one episode from before she goes off with Goku to find the dragon balls during the Red Ribbon Arc (where she mistakes his struggling with a female assassin for dancing with him or something and knocks him out in anger), I don't think I ever saw her mistreating him.

It seems they just didn't click anymore.

One Strip! One Strip!
AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#28741: Nov 19th 2015 at 6:22:42 AM

This entire conversation just makes want to Wolf Fang Fist someone in the face to end this mess.

GET ON WITH IT.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
BaffleBlend Hey there! Having fun? from Somewhere Since: Dec, 2012 Relationship Status: LET'S HAVE A ZILLION BABIES
Hey there! Having fun?
#28742: Nov 19th 2015 at 6:42:15 AM

Agreed. The way something was worded just struck a personal nerve.

...So, um... I wonder how far the Super Smash Bros Super Saiyan Blue transformations will go. Think we'll see, like, an SSB3 at some point?

"It's liberating, realizing you never need to be competent." — Ultimatepheer
Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#28743: Nov 19th 2015 at 6:44:07 AM

Super Saiyan Beyond Blue.

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Shlugo_the_great King of Burgers from Far Far Away (On A Trope Odyssey) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
King of Burgers
#28744: Nov 19th 2015 at 6:52:29 AM

So... Super Sayian Ultraviolet?

BaffleBlend Hey there! Having fun? from Somewhere Since: Dec, 2012 Relationship Status: LET'S HAVE A ZILLION BABIES
Hey there! Having fun?
#28745: Nov 19th 2015 at 6:54:38 AM

[up]Ultraviolet is invisible. He got so powerful it looks like he blew his hair off tongue

"It's liberating, realizing you never need to be competent." — Ultimatepheer
alekos23 Since: Mar, 2013
Demongodofchaos2 Face me now, bitch! from In a Cultivation World (Ancient one) Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Face me now, bitch!
#28747: Nov 19th 2015 at 6:58:14 AM

[up][up] So he became Saitama?

Watch Symphogear
BaffleBlend Hey there! Having fun? from Somewhere Since: Dec, 2012 Relationship Status: LET'S HAVE A ZILLION BABIES
Hey there! Having fun?
#28748: Nov 19th 2015 at 7:06:43 AM

[up]On that note, that brings to mind the kind of problems Goku would have if his power was boosted that much. I haven't gotten around to watching OPM yet, but I know the basic premise and how it deconstructs things. Goku is really lucky that his enemies have been able to keep up with his power spikes; if he got TOO powerful, that might be kind of hellish for him because he'd never be able to find a challenge, made worse by his Saiyan desire for battle.

edited 19th Nov '15 7:07:13 AM by BaffleBlend

"It's liberating, realizing you never need to be competent." — Ultimatepheer
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#28749: Nov 19th 2015 at 7:47:38 AM

I think Goku could manage being the strongest being in existence just fine. It would have been terrible for his development as a kid, but for who he is now, he'd be okay. He has no qualms with sandbagging his power for the sake of making a fight more fun. He's really more of a "journey" guy than a "destination" guy; he just wants to have a fun and engaging battle, it doesn't matter too much to him who wins.

Vegeta would be utterly miserable. It'd be great for the first five minutes and he'd go around showing off how powerful he is just because he can, but once the initial euphoria wears off and he realizes he's finally achieved his only goal and has nowhere to go from here, he'd crumble. He needs an enemy to overcome. It gives his life purpose.

Goku's an Explorer, Vegeta's an Achiever.

edited 19th Nov '15 7:51:02 AM by TobiasDrake

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HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#28750: Nov 19th 2015 at 7:59:23 AM

[up]

I like that. It sums them up pretty well.

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