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unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#28151: Nov 14th 2015 at 1:15:25 PM

Well in my defence, I was pointed out why he wasn't one. Why it's great that he didn't become one in the fandom.

I think it's a perfectly valid defence that will hold up 98% of the time in court.

That's still asserting that it is a concept that both exists and is considered negative.

LOLypop1224 ...what am I even DOING here? Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
...what am I even DOING here?
#28152: Nov 14th 2015 at 1:15:54 PM

Great Saiyaman was absolutely amazing and I don't care what anyone says.

And really, Super has taken some cues from it for its slice-of-life episodes. Have you noticed, DBZ filler episodes were normally more fighting, and the slice-of-life stuff was never that realistic. Goku getting his driver's license makes absolutely no sense. Neither does Gohan getting a tutor who's also abusive.

In comparison, Super has been surprisingly realistic. Episode 17 had the wives sitting down, trying to work out how they were going to raise Pan. You'd never expect DBZ to do something like that.

The *Legendary* Super Saiyan is motivated by a crying infant! He is a literal giant f***ing baby!
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#28153: Nov 14th 2015 at 1:17:50 PM

[up][up]

Umm.....

Mary Sue?

Never heard the term. Must be a non-existant thing.

Yes indeed.

edited 14th Nov '15 1:18:14 PM by HandsomeRob

One Strip! One Strip!
AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#28154: Nov 14th 2015 at 1:38:47 PM

I have something to admit: I can't stand Bruce Falconer's score for DBZ.

It sounds like a bunch of dumb 80s synthesizers with terrible electric guitars whining in the background. Seriously, people like this stuff? I mean, if you do, I don't judge, but good lord does it sound so...80s.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
BaconManiac5000 Since: Nov, 2013 Relationship Status: Baby don't hurt me!
#28155: Nov 14th 2015 at 1:45:28 PM

@LOL: I had seen a couple of videos of you while browsing on youtube before, and I realized today that they were of you.

what do you mean I didn't win, I ate more wet t-shirts than anyone else
IndirectActiveTransport plays capoeira from Chicago (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Every rose has its thorn
plays capoeira
#28156: Nov 14th 2015 at 1:46:45 PM

Mary Sue is totally a concept that exists. It was the title of an actual story, in a published magazine. Don't be silly.

Now whether or not Mary Sue is inherently bad? That's worth debating but Mary Sue herself is as legit as that Bojack movie.

Oh, and Gohan in high school is something I could do without but if it lead to superhero shenanigans as Great Saiyaman, I could forgive it. The problem there is that superhero curb stomps everything and makes the world a better place is kind of discredited. Nowadays people expect superheroes to be challenged by their problems and there is no natural disaster less than the asteroid belt spontaneously launching itself at Earth that would be a challenge to Great Saiyaman.

As for super villains, maybe Toriyama could come up with a Monster of the Week, Monster of the Aesop string of episodic plots and or a recurring rogues gallery but Vegeta really should have been his biggest concern. I honestly think Gohan's in a better position for that kind of thing after the Buu saga. Now he's got a wife, a sidekick, his own place of residence, a public reputation, those things are way more interesting than another high school superhero to me. Even more so when the fact there isn't anyone in his personal circle life who is Obviously Evil and fatherhood enters the mix. That's the Saiyaman we deserve.

Buldogue's lawyer
IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#28157: Nov 14th 2015 at 2:53:07 PM

An asteroid belt launching itself at Earth takes like, five seconds to resolve for Gohan.

Realistically speaking, in the universe, there are exactly five things that are a legit threat to Gohan at that point. Those are, in order of dangerousness:

Whis, Beerus, Buu, Vegeta and Dabura. Whis don't give a shit, so he's not really a threat. Beerus would be satisfied at just blowing up Earth and that would be that, so they could revive everyone and it'd be like nothing had happened. Buu is sealed up. Vegeta knows he would curbstomp Gohan so he doesn't even bother fighting him. Dabura would get roflstomped by Vegeta immediately after Gohan lost to him.

So yeah. There's no realistic threat to Gohan in the DBZ universe. Fortunately, that can always be easily bypassed by having the threats be not against Gohan, but against stuff he cares about, such as keeping his family safe from the media.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
BaconManiac5000 Since: Nov, 2013 Relationship Status: Baby don't hurt me!
#28158: Nov 14th 2015 at 2:57:15 PM

Kind of like how there's no real threat to Superman.

what do you mean I didn't win, I ate more wet t-shirts than anyone else
unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#28159: Nov 14th 2015 at 3:01:31 PM

...Is Vegeta stronger than Gohan in the Buu Saga?

I mean, I know Gohan's not as strong as he was when he fought Cell, and Vegeta thinks he can do a better job against Dabura. But part of that seems as much like Gohan making dumb mistakes as anything.

I mean, I think Vegeta would probably win at that point in a fight between them, because Vegeta would still have been ruthless if he felt like it, but.

edited 14th Nov '15 3:08:14 PM by unnoun

Demongodofchaos2 Face me now, bitch! from In a Cultivation World (Ancient one) Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Face me now, bitch!
#28160: Nov 14th 2015 at 3:05:13 PM

[up][up] Except Darkseid. Doomsday. Monghul. Himself ("I'll KILL YOU TO DEATH!"). Etc.

edited 14th Nov '15 3:05:24 PM by Demongodofchaos2

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IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#28161: Nov 14th 2015 at 3:09:11 PM

Here's your answer:

Would you say Goku was stronger than Gohan until Gohan went Mystic?

The answer is yes, and why this is relevant is as follows: Goku and Vegeta are either very near or at the same level of power. Goku has a further trump card in the form of SSJ 3, yes, but when they both fight in SSJ 2, they're equals.

[up]All things that were ever a threat to Superman before the reboot were only so because Superman was never at full power.

Superman at full power can only be challenged by Superman at full power. I'd like to remind you, Superman at full power is Superman Prime, AKA Supergod from One Million.

edited 14th Nov '15 3:11:09 PM by IAmNotCreativeEnough

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#28162: Nov 14th 2015 at 3:13:11 PM

It's kinda like when Tambourine first fought Goku. Yes, Tambourine won but that's only because Goku wasn't at full power.

Let the joy of love give you an answer! Check out my book!
Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#28163: Nov 14th 2015 at 3:17:24 PM

[up][up] Except that Superman Prime thing is completely fucking wrong, because of all the damn work Superman had to go through to get at that level; between being inside the Sun's core for 15,000 years, to training with The Source itself for decades to centuries, to making a magical contract with all other Supermen so that he gains their powers while also giving them some of his, there's really nothing natural about the state.

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
BaconManiac5000 Since: Nov, 2013 Relationship Status: Baby don't hurt me!
#28164: Nov 14th 2015 at 3:20:27 PM

Well, those things are a threat to Superman like those other things are a threat to Gohan.

That's the point I was making.

what do you mean I didn't win, I ate more wet t-shirts than anyone else
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#28165: Nov 14th 2015 at 3:22:26 PM

Can we please move on from this debate? What is it honestly bringing to the table?

TheMageofFire Since: May, 2012
#28166: Nov 14th 2015 at 3:22:52 PM

IS IT TIME TO MOVE ON TO POWER LEVELS?!

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#28167: Nov 14th 2015 at 3:24:44 PM

Android 18: Wait, no I'm confused.

Android 16: About what?

Android 18: When we fought a few days ago, Vegeta couldn't even stand up to me, yet here he is now taking on Cell. In his second form!

Android 16: Yeah? So?

Android 18: So either 17 being absorbed has scared me so much that I'm in a delusional coma...

Android 16: Or?

Android 18: Or power levels are bullshit!

edited 14th Nov '15 3:24:59 PM by AdricDePsycho

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#28168: Nov 14th 2015 at 3:24:48 PM

Super Saiyan Blue is only 50% stronger than Super Saiyan God! :P

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#28169: Nov 14th 2015 at 3:50:28 PM

...Is Vegeta stronger than Gohan in the Buu Saga?

He says as much. And he criticizes Gohan's drop in power more often that his mistakes or rusty skills.

He seems to be stronger than Boo arc Gohan, weaker than Cell Games Gohan. Because he needs Babidi's powerup to catch up to Goku, and realizes he needs this after seeing that Goku surpasses Cell Games Gohan. Piccolo isn't entirely sure if Majin Vegeta surpassed Cell Games Gohan, suggesting they're quite close in power.

unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#28170: Nov 14th 2015 at 4:01:37 PM

He says as much.

Well, yeah, and that's why I think he isn't.

I don't personally put a lot of stake in Vegeta's evaluation of Vegeta.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#28171: Nov 14th 2015 at 4:02:56 PM

He does have a tendency of thinking he's more awesome then he really is.

I guess we do have to take Vegeta's assessment of his power with a grain of salt.

One Strip! One Strip!
BaconManiac5000 Since: Nov, 2013 Relationship Status: Baby don't hurt me!
#28172: Nov 14th 2015 at 4:06:24 PM

You see Freeza, I've risen beyond the limits of a normal Saiyan and into the realm of legend.....

what do you mean I didn't win, I ate more wet t-shirts than anyone else
unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#28173: Nov 14th 2015 at 4:07:05 PM

From a narrative perspective, since as long as Vegeta has been nominally a protagonist back on Namek, his role has been to talk a big game about how much stronger he is and has gotten and then eventually get his shit wrecked.

With his overconfidence he's even lost fights he theoretically could have won, like his fight on Earth against Goku and the rest.

Whenever Vegeta says basically anything I take it as a cue to anticipate him getting his teeth knocked in.

I am not prepared to think of Vegeta as a reliable narrator about basically anything.

His big defining moments for me up to that point as far as fights go are getting destroyed on Earth by Yajirobe, Krillin and Gohan, having to crawl away at Krillin's mercy, getting destroyed by Frieza on Namek even after three Zenkais, getting his arm broken by 18 and then letting Cell power up like a dumbass, (and getting overpowered by Trunks in the meantime).

The big secret of the series is that TFS should have had a "Vegeta owned count" instead.

[up] Yeah, that. He goads Frieza into transforming when, near as I can tell, based on the official power levels, he couldn't actually have taken Frieza in his first form.

Vegeta's not just dumb, he's suicidally dumb.

edited 14th Nov '15 4:17:54 PM by unnoun

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#28174: Nov 14th 2015 at 4:14:09 PM

Speaking of which...if Krillin had actually gone through with stabbing Vegeta with the sword, would it have worked?

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#28175: Nov 14th 2015 at 4:16:35 PM

It went through his tail.

At that point Vegeta's been broken so badly that his power level would have been basically nil.


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