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LOLypop1224 ...what am I even DOING here? Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
...what am I even DOING here?
#27726: Nov 10th 2015 at 1:30:03 AM

You know, I was going to say "It's the most over-the-top anime I've watched besides Gurren Lagann", but I guess you beat me to it.

The *Legendary* Super Saiyan is motivated by a crying infant! He is a literal giant f***ing baby!
IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#27727: Nov 10th 2015 at 2:27:09 AM

Dragon Ball manages to be over-the-top without going way too far and obliterating suspension of disbelief. It helps that the series set a trend of ever-increasing power escalation early on, so it was not as big a shock as it kept growing and growing.

For me, Gurren Lagann just crosses the line into "trying way too hard to be cool" early on and runs it into the bedrock.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#27728: Nov 10th 2015 at 3:46:17 AM

Personally I don't think any fight has topped Goku vs. Jackie Chun in terms of choreography.

Like, plenty of fights afterwards have been good or fun, but. Eh.

I mean, my favorite moment in any fight scene might be 18 breaking Vegeta's arm.

It's glorious.

But, yeah. I watch this show for the characters, for the ridiculous but awesome world, and the fact that you don't get a shonen more over-the-top than it. At least in terms of sheer power.

Amen. Preach it.

My point is that I hate when shows don't have a consistent in-universe history

I mean, personally I've always preferred shows that don't.

You would despise Doctor Who.

Honestly, while I usually believe that every work of fiction, unless specified otherwise, has a clear, hard, canon to adhere to

I usually assume that they don't unless specified otherwise.

Canon's all about authority.

To me, canon represents the solid, unchanging history of the fictional universe. True history is immortal and unchanging

...When I think of canon as being like history, which I don't, I mean it in the sense that it's like actual history as done by actual historians. It's an incomplete and often contradictory mess done with sometimes broken sources from different and sometimes irreconcilable perspectives.

Also, it's mainly written by the victors.

Mainly I prefer not to think about canon at all, though.

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#27729: Nov 10th 2015 at 4:24:32 AM

[up][up] How dare you.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#27730: Nov 10th 2015 at 4:30:35 AM

Naw, I like it but it's not difficult for someone to call Gurren Lagann mediocre.

Piando 18's Glomp OF DOOM Since: Jun, 2015
18's Glomp OF DOOM
#27731: Nov 10th 2015 at 5:33:07 AM

What did I just miss?

I love you, Krillin!! -struggling to breathe- I love you as well, honey..
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#27732: Nov 10th 2015 at 7:33:03 AM

Not to beat a dead horse, but I just wanted to say that I actually agree with Unnoun's assessment that just because the Saiyans under Frieza's thumb are a genocidal warband, that is not proof in and of itself that they have been historically Always Chaotic Evil.

We know nothing of how their relationship with the PTO formed or even what they get out of it. They fly around the universe committing genocide in the name of a master who could exterminate them all with almost zero effort for no good reason - and later does exactly that. They're a warrior race but that doesn't mean they don't know their place; even Vegeta is terrified of Frieza, and we've seen that his father is willing to sacrifice his pride and do whatever it takes to appease the mad whims of Beerus. With the pecking order established, they'll do as they're told.

So did Frieza recruit them or did they volunteer? Are they slaves or employees? Does the PTO even understand the difference? There are so many unanswered questions about their relationship that makes it impossible to judge the past Saiyans based only on the actions of those members of their species who have been enslaved.

Raditz, Nappa, and Vegeta have never given any indication of knowing a life outside Frieza's thumb. They take pride in their work because of course they do; they grew up in slavery. Their developmental years were defined by service to Frieza, which means their moral compasses were inscribed by the PTO.

What we have seen is Vegeta, the ur-example of Saiyans being assholes, mellowing out, giving up genocide, and becoming a reasonably functional and decent person once he was free of Frieza's chains. There was a transitionary period that took a few years, but even in that time, he was never just flying around blowing up civilizations for lulz. Even before Character Development set in during the Android Saga, he never committed a single act of genocide again once Frieza was dead. And he's the most pointlessly evil Saiyan we've ever met.

So I don't think it's fair to dogpile on Unnoun for suggesting that there's some ambiguity to the Saiyan/Tuffle conflict, because she's right: we do not know enough of Saiyan history to just assume that they've always been genocidal barbarians. There are too many mitigating factors surrounding the genocidal barbarians of today, and said barbarians are entirely too willing to give it up once they're no longer slaves.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#27733: Nov 10th 2015 at 7:51:18 AM

I'm still not sure why Beerus seems so nervous here.

Like, what's up with that?

Yay Bra!

...Okay, that'd be easy to take out of context.

edited 10th Nov '15 7:52:19 AM by unnoun

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#27734: Nov 10th 2015 at 8:09:22 AM

I think Beerus is nervous is because he remembers Vegeta actually managing to knock him around a bit when he was angry (and without Super Saiyan God like Goku) and now the latter has become a God, is being trained by Whis, and Beerus knows how pumped Vegeta can get when he's mad enough.

He's afraid that if Vegeta actually knew he ordered the destruction of Planet Vegeta, the latter might have both the motivation and the power to be an actual threat. He's the only one who'd take that revelation personally after all.

One Strip! One Strip!
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#27735: Nov 10th 2015 at 8:27:02 AM

Funny thing is, he's worrying for nothing. I don't think Vegeta would care overmuch. For as much as he goes on about his Saiyan pride, Vegeta's pretty apathetic to the existence of other Saiyans and his history.

  • When Nappa wanted to revive Raditz with the Dragon Balls, Vegeta rejects the proposal out of hand, accusing Nappa of making a bad joke.
  • Vegeta outright killed Nappa, stating that a paralyzed Saiyan is worthless to him.
  • When Dodoria tells him Frieza blew their planet up, Vegeta blows it off.

Don't get me wrong, Dodoria. I don't give a damn about the planet, my friends, or my parents. I'm just disgusted with myself for not knowing this, and for letting myself be USED my entire life.

The only time Vegeta gives any indication of caring about his species is when he's dying in the Namekian grass, pleading with Goku to have some Saiyan pride for the first time in his life and kill Frieza. Given whose mouth these words are coming from, it comes off as him basically appealing to Goku's nature in the hopes of one last grasp at vengeance against Frieza rather than Vegeta genuinely lamenting the fate of his people.

And then he never really brings it up again. The reason there are only two Saiyans left instead of three is directly because of Vegeta and, if he had it his way, there would only be one. I doubt he'd be too tore up about Beerus wanting his planet destroyed.

edited 10th Nov '15 8:29:03 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#27736: Nov 10th 2015 at 8:34:53 AM

[up]

Yeah, he may have done those things because that's what Toriyama wanted him to do as opposed to that being what Vegeta is like.

Raditz and Nappa served their purpose, so they died. Vegetal doesn't bring up the destruction of his planet because that's no longer important to the plot in his opinion and all that.

Of course, maybe I'm selling him short. You do have a point and all.

One Strip! One Strip!
qtjinla15 Since: Dec, 2010
#27737: Nov 10th 2015 at 8:53:59 AM

So chalk it up to Toriyama not caring and not this is what is sensible/logical for the character to do/feel.

Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#27738: Nov 10th 2015 at 9:15:22 AM

There seems to be a pattern going here whenever we question why something isn't the way we want it to be.

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#27739: Nov 10th 2015 at 9:20:55 AM

In what way is it nonsensical for Vegeta's character? He's an inherently selfish creature. Not everyone cares about the fate of their kin. Vegeta takes pride in being a Saiyan super-elite because being a Saiyan super-elite is what made him strong. He wants to achieve the Super Saiyan legend not to glorify his race but to make himself powerful. His primary focus has always been the advancement of Vegeta - not the PTO, not the Saiyans, Vegeta. Vegeta is Vegeta's first and, for much of his life, only priority.

Given the choice between resurrecting one of the last Saiyan brethren he has left and empowering himself with immortality, Vegeta didn't even flinch; the answer to him was so glaringly obvious that he considered it absurd to even suggest ever doing the first one, because f*ck other Saiyans. Vegeta is all about enhancing the greatness of Vegeta and only values his Saiyan heritage for bringing him to this point.

Because Vegeta is, by far, the most selfish and evil Saiyan character we've ever met. The guy who openly mocks the Namekians because that village he slaughtered didn't get resurrected. The guy who mercilessly kills defeated enemies even as they beg and plead for their lives and swear they'll serve his cause. The guy who actually had to learn a lesson so basic as, "Maybe you shouldn't verbally and physically abuse your child for lulz." The guy who callously discards people he's known for his entire life the moment they cease having value as his personal tools and weapons.

There's nothing OOC about it. This is who Vegeta is. The Vegeta that cries himself to sleep at night thinking about what terrible fate has befallen his people, that dedicated his life to repopulating his race, that cared so much about avenging his father and his kin and deserved to be the hand that strikes down Frieza for the glory of his beloved people - that Vegeta never existed, and is purely a product of the fandom going nuts with Vegeta's dying speech.

Too many have taken Vegeta relating the story of his people's tragic fate to Goku as the summation of his character, when a more appropriate image would be Nappa screaming for his life as Vegeta cold-bloodedly murders him for being crippled by Goku.

edited 10th Nov '15 9:25:14 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#27740: Nov 10th 2015 at 9:24:52 AM

Best character. Of all time.

No, seriously, when you put it like that, why is Vegeta such an enjoyable character? Everyone hates Sasuke Uchiha, but loves Hiei and Vegeta.

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#27741: Nov 10th 2015 at 9:26:08 AM

Because it's fun to watch him suffer.

Vegeta's a rotten bastard but he gets what's coming to him all the time. His fights frequently devolve into Humiliation Conga. He was crushed and broken beneath an unconscious, naked child, then he was smashed by the brick wall of Recoome, then he was smashed by the brick wall of Frieza, then he was smashed by the brick wall of 18....

Somebody has to get the shit kicked out of them to establish how dangerous the villain is, and it's more fun to watch Vegeta get his face shoved up his own arse than to see the same happen to, say, Gohan. He's here to be a punching bag.

edited 10th Nov '15 9:27:55 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#27742: Nov 10th 2015 at 9:28:51 AM

18 breaking his arm was the actual best.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#27743: Nov 10th 2015 at 9:34:01 AM

Speaking of the Cell Saga, who remembers how outraged Vegeta was to discover that another Saiyan existed and was a Super Saiyan?

What Vegeta did not feel: "Great green God in the lookout, there is another member of my race! That brings us up to three! The Saiyans are making their comeback!"

What Vegeta did feel: "Son of a bitch mother*cker! How DARE there be another Super Saiyan before me?! I hate you forever, mysterious purple-haired traveler!"

edited 10th Nov '15 9:34:21 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#27744: Nov 10th 2015 at 9:36:02 AM

Even Frieza had people willing to fight for him, and henchmen he had some minor respect for.

edited 10th Nov '15 9:36:49 AM by Soble

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#27745: Nov 10th 2015 at 9:45:29 AM

Yep.

This is why, as I've pointed out before, it's kind of unfair that Vegeta got to live and be redeemed while Raditz and Nappa are dead forever. Even in works that bring them back to life, it's usually a one-note and then they're callously killed off 'cause, y'know, they're evil and belong in Hell. Sometimes Vegeta himself gets to do the deed.

GT even made a thing of all the villains escaping from Hell in the Super 17 arc, with Vegeta callously blasting Nappa back to oblivion and not another thought paid to it.

Raditz wanted to recruit Goku for some mission that never got explained. When it became apparent that Goku would never come with him, he still pressed the issue. He didn't kill Goku for being too weak or too soft; he took Gohan and tried to blackmail Goku into doing their work and joining him. He really badly wanted his brother and nephew to join their ranks.

Nappa genuinely cared about his fellow Saiyans. He wanted to revive Raditz with the Dragon Balls and seemed to expect Vegeta to show compassion after Goku broke his spine.

They were both genocidal monsters created by the PTO, but they appeared to have compassion in their hearts for each other. They were the last surviving members of their race and that mattered to them. They cared about their tribe, diminished though it was. And then they died at the hands of their own kin - Raditz because he wouldn't accept Goku's mercy when it was offered, Nappa betrayed by a leader he mistakenly believed gave two shits for his existence.

Make no mistake, they're both evil killers, but they also have a greater potential to turn their lives around than Vegeta ever did. They had redeemable qualities. But Vegeta's the one who became one of the most important main characters, while Nappa and Raditz get to rot in Hell.

It's not fair.

edited 10th Nov '15 9:47:03 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#27746: Nov 10th 2015 at 10:02:55 AM

The problem with Sasuke is that he's everything Vegeta is but is played straight as a tragic hero, which has the equal and opposite reaction of actually making him less sympathetic.

Arha Since: Jan, 2010
#27747: Nov 10th 2015 at 10:05:14 AM

Every time you say PTO you make me think of the Parent Teacher Organization. I'm not sure what the acronym is actually supposed to stand for apart for Frieza's empire. Probably. Though given that it's Vegeta I could see him committing genocide for that PTO as well.

Piando 18's Glomp OF DOOM Since: Jun, 2015
18's Glomp OF DOOM
#27748: Nov 10th 2015 at 10:05:59 AM

[up] Planet Trade organization.

I love you, Krillin!! -struggling to breathe- I love you as well, honey..
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#27749: Nov 10th 2015 at 10:07:38 AM

Personally, I don't think the saiyans would go out of their way to genocide others when they already have a planet and each other to fight.

But at the same time I think they'd also considering getting paid to do what love by Frieza a great deal, even if they were coerced into it, which is easy to picture.

Shlugo_the_great King of Burgers from Far Far Away (On A Trope Odyssey) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
King of Burgers
#27750: Nov 10th 2015 at 10:15:17 AM

Really, the moment Sayians got their hands on space travel, of course they are going to go in space to find people they can punch.


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