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unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#27651: Nov 9th 2015 at 5:54:17 PM

There are some instances where I think the native population might deserve it.

Countries I'm a citizen of, even.

edited 9th Nov '15 5:54:44 PM by unnoun

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#27652: Nov 9th 2015 at 5:54:25 PM

It happened with America.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#27653: Nov 9th 2015 at 5:55:36 PM

Nevermind, good save.

edited 9th Nov '15 5:56:37 PM by PushoverMediaCritic

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#27654: Nov 9th 2015 at 5:56:39 PM

Are we really trying to argue a case for the saiyans?

I'm pretty sure they were genocidal assholes.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#27655: Nov 9th 2015 at 5:57:13 PM

...yeah I think I'll sit this one out.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#27656: Nov 9th 2015 at 5:58:34 PM

I mentioned America. Remember who the genocidal assholes were there?

Shlugo_the_great King of Burgers from Far Far Away (On A Trope Odyssey) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
King of Burgers
#27657: Nov 9th 2015 at 5:59:48 PM

There are some instances where I think the native population might deserve it.

And here we have unnoun arguing that immigrants should kill the native population of countries they go to.

I would like to say something clever here, but honestly, I got nothing. I mean wow...

[up]You mean the immi... Oh I see what you did there!

edited 9th Nov '15 6:00:33 PM by Shlugo_the_great

unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#27658: Nov 9th 2015 at 6:00:35 PM

They're genocidal assholes by the time Frieza wiped them out.

I'm not sure we know enough to say that they've always been that way since the beginning of time though.

From the Saiyans we know that aren't genocidal assholes, or eventually learn how not to be genocidal assholes, it seems they still like fighting and punching strong things. I'm willing to say that's a constant.

But there's a big gap between that and genocidal asshole.

Especially since.

I mean, Vegeta was considered pretty evil even by Saiyan standards. Nappa was surprised and shocked at a few points in the Saiyan Saga by how ruthless Vegeta was towards the Saibamen, and seemed legitimately scared of him at points, and seemingly honestly wasn't expecting Vegeta to kill him.

So I think I'd be willing to bet that the majority of Saiyans were probably not as evil as Vegeta. I think he's probably about as bad as it gets.

And here we have unnoun arguing that immigrants should kill the native population of countries they go to.

I wouldn't call it arguing.

Like, there's a bitter, cynical sort of humor to my tone that you're not getting.

I mean, the immigration policies of a lot of countries is pretty fucked up and awful.

There's all sorts of human rights violations and abuses documented.

There is a sense in which I could consider certain forms of revolt, uprising or insurrection justifiable.

Not that I think it'd be the best option, or the most righteous one, or what "should" happen, but.

...I mean, I also wasn't being entirely serious.

It's the sort of joke where I don't think what I'm saying is actually true, but I'm scared it might be.

It's a very dark sort of comedy.

edited 9th Nov '15 6:10:30 PM by unnoun

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#27659: Nov 9th 2015 at 6:02:29 PM

Unnoun. Save yourself. Elaborate on which country and the particular circumstance you were talking about.

unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#27660: Nov 9th 2015 at 6:05:10 PM

I mean, for starters, that one time in Hungary where a camerawoman started running after refugee kids and started kicking them.

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#27661: Nov 9th 2015 at 6:05:11 PM

In the context of Freeza only killing the Saiyans because he feared the Super Saiyan legend, the Saiyan genocide is wrong.

Outside that context, there's not much worth morning.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#27662: Nov 9th 2015 at 6:08:28 PM

Good example. But no entire species deserves to be wiped out. Even the Saiyans had a code of honor and good ones among them.

edited 9th Nov '15 6:10:36 PM by PushoverMediaCritic

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#27663: Nov 9th 2015 at 6:13:43 PM

I can see some points here.

I mean, there's the Super Saiyan God legend (which is so old Vegeta didn't know about it), where six pure hearted saiyans banded together to save their world. We know pure hearted can be pure good or pure evil so there's a good chance there some pretty cool Saiyans at some point.

I admit, it'd actually be interesting to find out the conflict wasn't as black and white as some filler material has portrayed it.

On the topic of whether they deserved to be wiped out....probably. Not by Frieza, cause he deserved to die as much as they did, but yeah, Karma was gonna catch them at some point.

That being said, if Karma catches them, it should catch all the others who willingly worked with Frieza, and kept the planet trade going after he died too.

One Strip! One Strip!
Shlugo_the_great King of Burgers from Far Far Away (On A Trope Odyssey) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
King of Burgers
#27664: Nov 9th 2015 at 6:13:57 PM

Some countries do treat immigrants shitty, but still that just mean they should be avoided not that it's okay to go there and cause violence. Like, seriously.

Back to Sayians (because the other thing is not going anywhere good), they were definitely not in the businesses just to avoid Freeza wrath. When Raditz talked about it he was definitely sounding very pleased with himself, like "we are not only warriors, but also entrepreneurs", like he was proud of their business model.

BaconManiac5000 Since: Nov, 2013 Relationship Status: Baby don't hurt me!
#27665: Nov 9th 2015 at 6:14:58 PM

Okay, I leave for an hour and now we're talking about how genocide is okay?

what do you mean I didn't win, I ate more wet t-shirts than anyone else
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#27666: Nov 9th 2015 at 6:15:53 PM

[up]

That's why you can't fall behind man.tongue

One Strip! One Strip!
unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#27667: Nov 9th 2015 at 6:24:02 PM

Do we really know that the Saiyans were all genocide all the time before Frieza?

I mean, evidently the Saiyans wiped out the Tuffles, but there's a lot about that situation that's potentially complicated. The fact that in all descriptions of the story, in the Anime, in Plan to Eradicate the Saiyans, and the Baby Saga it's said that the Tuffles had the good fertile land, cities, and technology, while the Saiyans had the dirty wastes indicates a pretty basic power imbalance.

And there are plenty of times where Goku lets someone live because they'd be a good fight later, and Vegeta deliberately goads Frieza into powering up, doesn't want to stop Doctor Gero because he wants to fight the androids, or when he lets Cell absorb 18 and become Perfect.

The Saiyans are about fighting. They're about good fights, challenging fights. Slaughtering those too weak to fight back doesn't fit that description.

I mean, yes, the Saiyans did, in fact, commit genocides for the PTO. That's what Goku was sent to Earth for, it's something Vegeta's done many times, it's what Bardock did and Gine wasn't cut out for, what Raditz got mad at Goku for failing at.

But the thing I question is whether the genocides are something innate to the Saiyans, or whether it's a learned behavior, whether it's something imposed upon them due to their social circumstances, because it's what Frieza wanted from them.

I mean, I'm not saying if not for Frieza the Saiyans would be hunky dory productive members of galactic society. They'd still wreck up the place getting into fights, eating all your food, and dear god do you want to keep them away from a full moon if your planet has those.

But there's a difference between the things that seem innate to the Saiyans, that even a Saiyan raised on Earth and a Saiyan slowly changing because of contact with Earth society still cling to, and the mass death and destruction the Saiyans caused as part of the PTO.

Like, as part of their campaigns of genocide the Saiyans probably came into contact with some strong fighters, some challenging foes, someone who was trying to defend their people. Those fights were probably fun.

But the seemingly innate aspects of the Saiyan mindset don't seem to lend themselves to killing those weaker than you just because you can. There's no challenge to that.

Which isn't to say that there haven't been Saiyans that have done it, but. It strikes me as a learned behavior.

Or Vegeta being a complete asshole that scares other Saiyans because of how evil he is. Because he is, and he does. Nappa and Raditz both had a sense of kinship, of honor. Vegeta just didn't give a fuck.

Nappa honestly seemed to think they were going to wish Raditz back and was surprised when Vegeta decided not to.

Like, he didn't question Vegeta's decision, but.

And he definitely wasn't expecting Vegeta to turn on him.

Okay, I leave for an hour and now we're talking about how genocide is okay?

No. I made an awful joke. And I apologize.

edited 9th Nov '15 6:29:21 PM by unnoun

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#27668: Nov 9th 2015 at 6:27:46 PM

Goku is the way he is because he hit his head. When Gohan first found him he was unruly and feral. Could being on Earth long enough change that? Probably, but that's not the reason he did change.

edited 9th Nov '15 6:28:41 PM by LSBK

unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#27669: Nov 9th 2015 at 6:28:39 PM

That's not quite the same as genocidal?

edited 9th Nov '15 6:28:47 PM by unnoun

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#27670: Nov 9th 2015 at 6:29:56 PM

I'm aware. The point was that Goku's environment while shaping who he is, didn't shape that part of him. A head injury did.

I mean, Vegeta may have been evil even by saiyan standards, but neither Raditz or Nappa had a problem with genocide either. Nor King Vegeta or Bardock and his squad mates.

Though I guess the part about Bardock has been retconned. And you could still probably do a nature vs. nurture argument for how they all turned out.

edited 9th Nov '15 6:32:05 PM by LSBK

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#27671: Nov 9th 2015 at 6:33:19 PM

I didn't mean to imply that the Saiyan genocide was okay, just that it was sorta karmic.

unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#27672: Nov 9th 2015 at 6:33:20 PM

And, I mean, according to Dragon Ball Minus, Kakarot was already, like, three at the time. And he'd been in the incubation chamber and the attack ball.

So it's not like Kakarot hadn't had anything to do with Saiyan culture at that point either.

And you could still probably do a nature vs. nurture argument for how they all turned out.

I mean, it's not implied Bardock or Raditz have known any life other than working for Frieza.

Jury's out on Nappa and King Vegeta.

And, I mean, I can buy them being dicks. Working for Frieza might have been their idea, depending on time scale. A time scale I genuinely don't know, because I have no idea how long the Saiyans were working for Frieza.

edited 9th Nov '15 6:35:33 PM by unnoun

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#27673: Nov 9th 2015 at 6:38:36 PM

Unnoun, please drop this. This is literally bordering on whitewashing; we don't know anything else about the saiyans more than what was shown, and they were shown to be genocidal assholes. Even with Frieza under their rule, they clearly enjoyed their work. So stop trying to insert headcanons into actual canon.

So moving on, I notice a lot of people really aren't fond of Super Saiyan Blue, how do you guys feel about it compared to the other transformations?

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#27675: Nov 9th 2015 at 6:41:06 PM

No species deserves to be genocided. None. Not even the Saiyans. There were good Saiyans and even the evil ones had a code of honor.


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