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Demongodofchaos2 Face me now, bitch! from In a Cultivation World (Ancient one) Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Face me now, bitch!
#27601: Nov 9th 2015 at 1:39:20 PM

On the other hand, it's obvious the Super Saiyan transformation in terms of appearance is a reference to the Gold Cloth Power up from Saint Seiya.

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MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#27602: Nov 9th 2015 at 1:47:02 PM

@drake how you felt about the Freeza fight is howI felt about the Vegeta fight. Gohan taking levels in badass, Goku's new power up, Spirit Bomb, allies popping out to help and none of it worked. In this case though Goku straight up lost and Vegeta went down to a dual KO with Were-Monkey Gohan.

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#27603: Nov 9th 2015 at 1:53:23 PM

I admit, I do like how Freiza was pretty much unstoppable until Goku transformed; later villains were a threat, but mostly because the saiyans hadn't trained hard enough or the characters made dumb decisions to prolong the plot.

Frieza? The good guys literally pulled out everything and it still wasn't enough. Like, had Goku not transformed, Freiza basically won after he survived the Spirit Bomb. There was literally nothing else the good guys had to beat him. Every option was literally exhausted.

If it wasn't for the fucking spoiler title of the next episode, Frieza's return after getting bombed would have basically been "HOLY SHIT, ITS OVER" for me.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#27604: Nov 9th 2015 at 2:09:22 PM

You know, something I'm kinda thinking would've been interesting is if Goku had gone ahead and transformed...

... and it still wasn't enough to beat Freeza at 100%.

Keep the canon thing about him bleeding power, and make it so that the fight between the two of them at full power begins at something like 120.000.000 VS 100.000.000, and it's more of a show of Goku's resourcefulness, skill and ability that allows him to survive long enough for Freeza to leak enough power that he just can't fight Goku anymore.

Throw in the fact that Freeza's been fighting pretty much nonstop for quite a while already, and you can totes have Goku win a fight not through overwhelming power, but through a combination of skill, ability and tenacity. You know, like did practically every other opponent he beat.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#27605: Nov 9th 2015 at 2:15:14 PM

That would be nice but seeing the tables be completely turned on Freeza. He had been dominating the fight from the start and seeing he finally get thrashed and be put in the position the heroes were the entire time was extremely cathartic.

Besides, they did that exact thing with Golden Freeza VS SSB Goku and the result was that SSB ended up being horribly underwhelming.

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HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#27606: Nov 9th 2015 at 2:23:14 PM

I think I've said this before, but I can definitely see where the "It should've ended at Frieza" people are coming from.

MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#27607: Nov 9th 2015 at 2:25:13 PM

Super Saiyan not trashing Freeza would've made it underwhelming.

And it would've made Freeza's fear of the SS form unfounded.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#27608: Nov 9th 2015 at 2:28:31 PM

It's already pretty unfounded, just from the power escalation between Frieza and Ginyu. The only reason Goku's Super Saiyan transformation was so potent against Frieza is because he also got a gigantic zenkai that was quietly brushed under the rug, raising his battle power from 90k to 3 million.

Had Goku become a Super Saiyan with the battle power he arrived on Namek with, he would have only had 4.5 million to bring against Frieza, which is barely stronger than the base form he actually fought Frieza with.

edited 9th Nov '15 2:30:12 PM by TobiasDrake

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BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
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#27609: Nov 9th 2015 at 2:31:49 PM

Yea, I wouldn't have minded Freiza putting up a fight against the Super Saiyan instead of a complete curb stomp, but not having Goku get the upperhand after this hyped up transformation would have made it extremely underwhelming.

Its like, we already knew at that point how strong Frieza was, so there's no need to further establish that. However, we needed to fully understand just how strong the Super Saiyan was in order to understand why Frieza was so afraid of it. So Frieza getting absolutely thrashed after dominating the entire fight just established just how strong Goku had gotten as a result of the transformation.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#27610: Nov 9th 2015 at 2:33:15 PM

This is why I take power levels with a grain of salt . They're bullshit.

"If I may ask, out of all the main villains of the numerous story arcs in Dragon Ball (and this includes Z as well), which one would be considered the more popular villain?"

By a landslide, I would say Vegeta.

unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#27611: Nov 9th 2015 at 2:34:29 PM

[up][up][up] Didn't Toriyama originally intend Super Saiyan to be a 200x boost and it got established to be 50x later?

Like, I know the transformation has official math and shit behind it now, but.

I don't think Toriyama has ever thought "now how will this go based on the numbers" while he was writing the series.

The numbers strike me as having always been post hoc.

edited 9th Nov '15 2:34:37 PM by unnoun

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#27612: Nov 9th 2015 at 2:34:42 PM

edited 9th Nov '15 2:35:05 PM by LSBK

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#27613: Nov 9th 2015 at 2:34:45 PM

Why do people keep saying Power Levels are bullshit :V, its like they're taking a joke and using it as a fact now.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#27614: Nov 9th 2015 at 2:35:40 PM

They are and they're using it in a context different from the joke's anyway.

edited 9th Nov '15 2:36:06 PM by LSBK

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#27615: Nov 9th 2015 at 2:37:38 PM

DBZ's use of Power Levels is almost a deconstruction, as they're really only relevant for the Saiyan/Namek mega-arc and a large part of that relevance is how the villains' reliance on them in impractical.

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#27616: Nov 9th 2015 at 2:38:22 PM

[up][up]That.

edited 9th Nov '15 2:38:34 PM by VeryMelon

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
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#27617: Nov 9th 2015 at 2:40:17 PM

Power Levels serve to establish how strong everyone is relative to each other, rather than most vague measurements most Shonen series use.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#27618: Nov 9th 2015 at 2:50:39 PM

Power levels have been a part of Dragon Ball since the moment we met Goku, whose unreasonable strength allowed him to resist a gunshot between the eyes, and then proceeded to run rampant all over the faces of various adversaries. The very first form of training he ever received was pure strength training, raising his power in preparation for the 21st Tenkaichi Budokai, where he almost defeated the greatest martial artist on the planet.

They just didn't have precise numbers outside the Saiyan and Namek arcs. Also, the villains' reliance on power levels was never shown as impractical. The heroes do the same thing, but they sense ki to determine power levels rather than use technology. It was the villains' reliance on Scouters that was depicted as a vulnerability.

edited 9th Nov '15 2:51:42 PM by TobiasDrake

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unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#27619: Nov 9th 2015 at 3:00:26 PM

I mean, I don't think Toriyama has ever relied on the multipliers very much.

Like, all he needed for the Super Saiyan transformation was "strong enough to beat Frieza".

LOLypop1224 ...what am I even DOING here? Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
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#27620: Nov 9th 2015 at 3:06:01 PM

Power Levels were still really important. As one example, we wouldn't understand just how ridiculously powerful Gohan's potential was if Raditz hadn't picked up that his power level was in the 1300's when he got angry. That is, higher than Goku, and almost as high as Piccolo when he's charging the Makankosappo. If the number wasn't there, you could have put the fact that Raditz got hurt from his headbutt down to him just getting caught off-guard.

The *Legendary* Super Saiyan is motivated by a crying infant! He is a literal giant f***ing baby!
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#27621: Nov 9th 2015 at 3:32:07 PM

[up][up] But what's considered "strong enough to beat Freiza" :V

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#27622: Nov 9th 2015 at 3:33:19 PM

I mean, by that point, I'm pretty sure the last number said aloud was Frieza's second form being at 1 million. Ish.

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#27623: Nov 9th 2015 at 3:38:13 PM

I stand by my new quote.

Lionheart0 Since: Oct, 2009 Relationship Status: I'm just a hunk-a, hunk-a burnin' love
#27624: Nov 9th 2015 at 3:44:58 PM

I posted this in the TFS thread, but it just dawned on me that I'm surprised Vegeta has continued to wear Battle Armor when it's pretty much the symbol of the Saiyans' subjugation to Freeza.

edited 9th Nov '15 3:45:10 PM by Lionheart0

unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#27625: Nov 9th 2015 at 3:45:58 PM

[up][up]I mean, in real life there's a significant difference between the world's strongest person and the world's fastest person.

And even a difference between the fastest sprinter and the fastest swimmer.

And between the person who can lift the most weight and the person who can throw the strongest punch.

[up] I mean, the Scouters were invented by the Tuffles.

Maybe the armor was actually invented by the Saiyans and the PTO just standardized it.

Like, there's probably some upgrades and stuff over the years.

I mean, the armor seems specifically designed to grow with the Great Ape transformation.

It doesn't, however, seem to grow with Frieza's transformations. He takes it off before he transforms.

Which seems odd to me.

edited 9th Nov '15 3:48:44 PM by unnoun


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