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Piando 18's Glomp OF DOOM Since: Jun, 2015
18's Glomp OF DOOM
#27551: Nov 9th 2015 at 6:11:39 AM

So anyone want them to explore Dabura's realm after the new Frieza arc?

I love you, Krillin!! -struggling to breathe- I love you as well, honey..
Lionheart0 Since: Oct, 2009 Relationship Status: I'm just a hunk-a, hunk-a burnin' love
#27552: Nov 9th 2015 at 7:50:33 AM

[up]Both Xenoverse and Heroes have been adapting from that, so I wouldn't be surprised if Super dips into the well too.

Kind of funny, all this talk about loss potential for characters, I always thought Dabura was the poster-child for that in this series.

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#27553: Nov 9th 2015 at 7:51:48 AM

Dabura not being in Xenoverse when his sister is one of the antagonists will never stop being odd to me.

IndirectActiveTransport plays capoeira from Chicago (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Every rose has its thorn
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#27554: Nov 9th 2015 at 8:12:08 AM

Wait, Majin Buu isn't the poster child for that? At least Dabura has the excuse of being dead.

I find it amusing though, that Xenoverse used the "seal on the demon world" plot from the anime filler. I honestly wouldn't mind seeing the "original" demon world denizens again, even if it is just more filler than will be overridden by later developments. Have they all been training in Goku's absence, how do they react to their previously unmentioned "leader's" brainwashing and slaying? Do they even know of the Demon god's existence? And that leads to another question. If the demon world is a mirror of the regular one, should it not have it's own Kais and Kaioshin? How does a demon god fit into that...is that the reason Demigra did not want the seal on the demon world broken? How would he and Towa react when they learn some guy much weaker than either did it by simply wedging a door open with a sword?

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TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#27555: Nov 9th 2015 at 8:17:37 AM

I foresee people using the "Push-ups, situps, and plenty of juice" line for Vegeta again, as Toei's foregoing ever explaining how Vegeta becomes SSG without the ritual in Super.

"It just works."

  • VEGETA: I'll become a Super Saiyan God WITHOUT the ritual 'cause I'm just awesome that way. Later, bitches! *flies away*
  • The following year
  • SHENRON: You have summoned THE ETERNAL DRAGON! State your wish and—oh, Vegeta. I don't think you've ever summoned me before.
  • VEGETA: Well, not for lack of trying, mind you. Anyways, I need a way to become Super Saiyan God without doing that stupid ritual. I made a big scene about it, lots of bluster.
  • SHENRON: So now you can't exactly crawl back with your tail between your legs and confess that you were blowing smoke. You'd never live it down.
  • VEGETA: Yes, exactly! You get me.
  • SHENRON: Well, unfortunately, I don't know what to tell you. The God Ritual is the only way.
  • VEGETA: No, there is another way. It involves having a wish-granting dragon who can reshape reality create another way.
  • SHENRON: Fair enough.
  • VEGETA: I wish to create a second method by which I can become a Super Saiyan God!
  • SHENRON: YOUR WISH HAS BEEN GRANTED.
  • VEGETA: Awesome! What is it?
  • SHENRON: ...
  • VEGETA: Really? You're going to be that guy right now?
  • SHENRON: I have granted your wish.
  • VEGETA: *sigh* I walked right into that. For my second wish, I wish for you to explain the second method!
  • SHENRON: YOUR WISH HAS BEEN GRANTED. Turn into a Super Saiyan 2 and train until you can handle 800x gravity and you'll spontaneously become Super Saiyan God.
  • VEGETA: Awesome! That'll show them!
  • SHENRON: *disperses*

edited 9th Nov '15 8:21:47 AM by TobiasDrake

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Piando 18's Glomp OF DOOM Since: Jun, 2015
18's Glomp OF DOOM
#27556: Nov 9th 2015 at 10:38:12 AM

So um, best death or beat down in Z, the movies or Super?

I love you, Krillin!! -struggling to breathe- I love you as well, honey..
unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#27557: Nov 9th 2015 at 10:41:39 AM

Goku penetrating King Piccolo.

Shlugo_the_great King of Burgers from Far Far Away (On A Trope Odyssey) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
King of Burgers
#27558: Nov 9th 2015 at 10:44:10 AM

Best Beatdown? Vegeta vs... pretty much all of them. Vegeta makes too good of a punching bag for his own good.

Piando 18's Glomp OF DOOM Since: Jun, 2015
18's Glomp OF DOOM
#27559: Nov 9th 2015 at 10:45:48 AM

My most horrifying beatdown was Videl vs Sppopovich.

My favorite death was Vegeta vs Pui Pui.

I love you, Krillin!! -struggling to breathe- I love you as well, honey..
Lionheart0 Since: Oct, 2009 Relationship Status: I'm just a hunk-a, hunk-a burnin' love
#27560: Nov 9th 2015 at 11:06:16 AM

So um, best death or beat down in Z, the movies or Super?

Honestly, I always found Freeza's Humiliation Conga on Namek to be the most cathartic moment of the series.

edited 9th Nov '15 11:06:32 AM by Lionheart0

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#27561: Nov 9th 2015 at 11:08:31 AM

Goku punching through King Piccolo.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#27562: Nov 9th 2015 at 11:27:04 AM

Basically the entire prolonged dogpile of a fight with everyone jumping on Frieza and Frieza battering everyone off of him one after another is my favorite action sequence in Dragon Ball. I'm almost a little disappointed that Goku became a Super Saiyan and flipped the battle on its head. Up until that point, Frieza was living up to the terrifying reputation that so much groundwork had set up in a way that few villains really get to - an extended sequence where literally every gun in Chekhov's Armory gets pulled and fired and every last one of them fails at the task.

Reviving dead heroes to come back at the eleventh hour? FAILED. Gohan's Hidden Power? FAILED. Zenkai shenanigans? FAILED. The Kaioken? FAILED. The Genki-Dama? Goddamn mother*cking FAILED. You name it, it got used and it wasn't enough, because this is the guy that even Vegeta was too scared to directly oppose, the guy that Goku was warned repeatedly would effortlessly murder him if he even tried.

Frieza was the Beerus of his time; he wasn't just stronger, he was in an entirely different weight class. Much more leveling was required before he could be considered a reasonable challenge.

I've mentioned it before in the "What would you change if you were rebooting Dragon Ball" discussions that crop up in this thread from time to time, but I would have the desperate wish combo to revive Namek and get everyone off the planet happen earlier and for Goku to go with it, leaving Frieza undefeated but robbing him of his prize.

Then the Android Saga would happen after everyone got back to Earth, and only after that would Frieza return. I feel like spending so much time building him up for him to only have one prolonged fight scene ending in a Deus ex Machina victory was a bit of a disappointment.

edited 9th Nov '15 11:33:24 AM by TobiasDrake

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Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#27563: Nov 9th 2015 at 11:42:13 AM

Super Saiyan is not a Deus ex Machina. It was referenced many times before and the requirements for it were pretty clear and it was equally clear that Goku met all of those requirements. Goku turning Super Saiyan and defeating Freeza was a given because it was clearly built up to. The question wasn't if Goku would turn Super Saiyan but when. Personally, I thoroughly enjoyed the conclusion to the Freeza fight, especially in the manga since Goku finally got to turn the tables on him.

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Shlugo_the_great King of Burgers from Far Far Away (On A Trope Odyssey) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
King of Burgers
#27564: Nov 9th 2015 at 11:52:40 AM

The entire Namek Arc has been building up Super Sayian as the most awesome thing ever and the one thing that can defeat Freeza. It would make no sense for the battle to not end with Goku becoming the legend and kicking Freeza ass.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#27565: Nov 9th 2015 at 11:54:07 AM

Deus ex Machina may have been a particularly harsh choice of words, but the point is, while it didn't come out of nowhere from a narrative perspective, it did from a character one. Goku's always been a character who works very hard to get where he's going. When he can't defeat a foe, he puts in the effort needed to come back stronger and prevail.

He's had a lot of supernatural benefits but he's always sought them out. He went out of his way to learn from Kame-sennin. When he couldn't beat Tao Pai Pai, he climbed Korin's Tower, increased his strength, and learned move prediction. When he couldn't beat Piccolo Daimao, he trained under God, increased his strength, and learned to sense ki. When the weakest of the Saiyans was too much for him and more were on their way, he sought Kaio-sama, increased his strength, and learned the Kaioken and the Genki-Dama.

This trend continues even beyond Frieza. When he knew he couldn't beat Cell, he took everyone to the Room of Spirit and Time, then trained Gohan to become a Super Saiyan and master his Hidden Power. When he didn't want to be the one to defeat Majin Buu, he passed the Fusion Dance on to Trunks and Goten, then went to see how Gohan's progressing in his Z Sword training. Goku's always the guy who, when he runs up against an insurmountable wall, he steps aside, finds the way to surmount it, and then comes back with an answer and enough power to drive that answer home.

But his Super Saiyan transformation just sort of happened. He didn't even know it was a thing until that very fight. It required no effort on his part to obtain; only an emotional reaction to Krillin getting fridged. It was not a reward for Goku's hard work and diligence, it just happened so that he could finish the fight and defeat the foe that could not be defeated.

It would be more appropriate for Goku's character for him to learn from Vegeta that the Super Saiyan is a thing, and then have to put some effort into unlocking it. Even when Goku was abusing zenkais, he was doing it by grinding Kamehamehas into his own chest under 100x gravity and then popping Senzus; always training, always working hard, always putting in some amount of effort.

Goku doesn't really do freebies except when he needed to be powerful enough to defeat Frieza despite having no way to do so. Both his final zenkai and his Super Saiyan transformation end up coming off as rushed because of it.

edited 9th Nov '15 11:58:36 AM by TobiasDrake

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Piando 18's Glomp OF DOOM Since: Jun, 2015
18's Glomp OF DOOM
#27566: Nov 9th 2015 at 11:56:49 AM

The Super Saiyan was foreshadowed as far as when Dodoria explained the destruction of Planet Vegeta.

I love you, Krillin!! -struggling to breathe- I love you as well, honey..
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#27567: Nov 9th 2015 at 11:59:35 AM

Tobias' argument is that Goku getting it randomly killed the tension for him, not that the Super Saiyan form didn't have build-up.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#27568: Nov 9th 2015 at 12:01:54 PM

Right. It was an uncharacteristic way for Goku to win. Goku likes to earn things. In later arcs, he even expresses disdain for free power-ups both when he and Vegeta destroy their Potaras and pledge to beat Buu with their own strength and again when Goku whines about Super Saiyan God not being the product of his own development.

Super Saiyan was foreshadowed well and Goku certainly deserved to get it, but he deserved to get it by virtue of his own hard work like he does everything else, not because Krillin got turned into a blood fountain.

edited 9th Nov '15 12:02:38 PM by TobiasDrake

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Lionheart0 Since: Oct, 2009 Relationship Status: I'm just a hunk-a, hunk-a burnin' love
#27569: Nov 9th 2015 at 12:03:40 PM

[up]Goku turning into Super Saiyan is no different than Gohan's Super Saiyan 2 transformation. It wasn't something given to him, it's just the potential that was always there got brought out by him becoming really pissed off.

Piando 18's Glomp OF DOOM Since: Jun, 2015
18's Glomp OF DOOM
#27570: Nov 9th 2015 at 12:07:22 PM

[up] Or Vegeta's power up against Beerus in Battle of Gods.

I love you, Krillin!! -struggling to breathe- I love you as well, honey..
Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#27571: Nov 9th 2015 at 12:10:03 PM

Also, Goku did not train under Kami to defeat Piccolo Daimaou. He didn't learn of Kami until after that. He went to Korin and drank the Ultra Divine Water which just magically powered him up. The only "work" he had to do for it was suffer for about six hours. Also, no one ever taught him how to sense ki. He just could randomly do it after drinking the Ultra Divine Water.

Let the joy of love give you an answer! Check out my book!
unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
Arha Since: Jan, 2010
#27573: Nov 9th 2015 at 12:22:38 PM

Korin will be one of the five fighters. He will offer all five of the others a drink of the real magic water, which will kill them all.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#27574: Nov 9th 2015 at 12:23:38 PM

Goku turning into Super Saiyan is no different than Gohan's Super Saiyan 2 transformation. It wasn't something given to him, it's just the potential that was always there got brought out by him becoming really pissed off.

Gohan becoming a Super Saiyan 2 wouldn't have been possible without all the effort Goku put into teaching him to become a Super Saiyan, to master the form and become a Full Power Super Saiyan, and to harness his Hidden Power and bring it to bear against cell. It also wouldn't have been possible without all the effort Cell put into coaxing it out of him.

From Gohan's perspective, it might have seemed like it just happened, but both Goku and Cell put a lot of work into bringing it about. It was the realization of the form beyond Super Saiyan that both Goku and Vegeta had dedicated their time in the RoSaT to trying to achieve.

Also, Goku did not train under Kami to defeat Piccolo Daimaou. He didn't learn of Kami until after that. He went to Korin and drank the Ultra Divine Water which just magically powered him up. The only "work" he had to do for it was suffer for about six hours. Also, no one ever taught him how to sense ki. He just could randomly do it after drinking the Ultra Divine Water.

You're right, I keep forgetting that his training on the Lookout happened in the timeskip leading up to the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai. That's fair.

edited 9th Nov '15 12:24:08 PM by TobiasDrake

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AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#27575: Nov 9th 2015 at 12:26:10 PM

Eh, Goku going Super Saiyan was still pretty damn awesome. It's like, after all the shit going on in Namek and Freeza still isn't dead, Goku finally decides "fuck this, Imma kill you", and unleashes his anger and rage on him in this moment of absolute catharsis that is just so GLORIOUS.

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