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Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#27176: Nov 4th 2015 at 7:30:36 AM

[up][up] That is not what that trope means.

Let the joy of love give you an answer! Check out my book!
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#27177: Nov 4th 2015 at 7:36:37 AM

That's really not true. It doesn't even come up until much later into the fight, and 16's speech has absolutely nothing to do with losing control nor is it about Gohan realizing he won't lose control. In fact it's the complete opposite - 16's death made Gohan lose control and abandon his values in order to get back at Cell. The energy clash is the only time that comes up in the manga.

So you're saying it's untrue that Gohan would lose control and become something dangerous because he.....arguably did exactly what he was afraid he'd do?

Also note he got his dad killed because he lost control of himself.

Well, you're the manga man Saiga? What did Gohan say about why he didn't want to fight Cell in the original story?

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PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#27178: Nov 4th 2015 at 10:29:38 AM

He didn't see the point in fighting if it was just going to be a pointless spectacle that nobody was taking seriously. Cell showed that it was indeed serious by attacking everyone with Cell Juniors.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#27179: Nov 4th 2015 at 12:43:19 PM

Yeah. Gohan looked at the Cell Games and he basically just saw a big, stupid, pointless Conflict Ball with no possible benefit to anyone involved. Which, to his credit, it absolutely was. It made perfect sense to the likes of Cell and Goku because this is what they do. For Goku, it's his passion. For Cell, he ran out of character motivation when he absorbed 17 and 18, achieving his only goal and winning the conflict. With everything on his villainous goals checklist completed, he fell back on his genetic makeup and was like, "Well, let's just make a big spectacle event of punching each other until someone wins. And you're gonna be there 'cause I'll blow up the Earth if you don't, obvs."

And Goku was like, "Dude, I'd be there if you weren't going to blow up the Earth because I LOVE punching each other until someone wins!"

And Gohan's standing there going, "Why is this even happening?! This whole thing is stupid! Holding a tournament where we just beat the crap out of each other for no reason is stupid! Threatening to kill the world if we don't compete in the punching tournament is stupid! We ran out of excuses to be hurting each other several chapters ago but we're still doing it! Why are we still doing it?!"

Gohan had no investment in the fight. He knew his father was counting on him to lose his temper and unleash his hidden power but he didn't want to because he saw no value in the whole thing. So Cell, after hearing the story about Gohan's hidden power, gave into his Saiyan genes and was like, "That sounds AWESOME. I'm going to piss you off until you do it!"

Gohan was also afraid of his hidden power, which he admits when Cell starts trying to force it out of him by killing his friends. It took 16 convincing him that it's okay to let go and hurt someone if that person is hurting others and can't be reasoned with, for him to finally unlock his hidden power.

edited 4th Nov '15 12:44:29 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
LOLypop1224 ...what am I even DOING here? Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
...what am I even DOING here?
#27180: Nov 4th 2015 at 6:58:29 PM

Basically, Gohan was actually talking logically. Which I really liked. It's not often you see a character in Dragon Ball go "wait, why don't we just not fight?"

The *Legendary* Super Saiyan is motivated by a crying infant! He is a literal giant f***ing baby!
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#27181: Nov 4th 2015 at 9:07:39 PM

Well, that's certainly one interpretation of things. I wouldn't exactly call it logically because it ignores everything already established about Cell and things Gohan should already understand very well.

We can all agree that destroying the world if they don't beat him in the tournament is stupid but he should be beyond questioning the motives of guys like Cell and just do what he has to do at that point.

edited 4th Nov '15 9:09:55 PM by LSBK

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#27182: Nov 4th 2015 at 9:14:50 PM

Ummm- No that's pretty much what Gohan says. He says that this is dumb and pointless and Cell gets pissed. Cell attacks Gohan but Gohan maintains that it's dumb and pointless. Gohan mentions that you wouldn't like him when he's angry and Cell takes that as a promise and brings out the Cell Juniors. Only then does Gohan start getting mad and, even than, Cell is still stronger.

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#27183: Nov 4th 2015 at 9:19:45 PM

I didn't say it's not how it happened, I was disagreeing with Gohan being logical in the situation. There's a difference between how things should be and how they actually are. He should understand the difference.

edited 4th Nov '15 9:20:32 PM by LSBK

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#27184: Nov 4th 2015 at 10:04:40 PM

So I'm finally catching up on Super.

Just caught episode 11. Hoping to be caught up with everyone else soon.

As for how logical it was or wasn't for Gohan to point out how pointless the shit Cell was doing was. I think at that point, Cell just wanted a good fight, and didn't give a shit about how he got it.

Is there no point in destroying the world? No. Do I think he would have done it to be a dick? Well, yeah. He clearly enjoyed eating people to power up. I can totally see him blowing up the earth to get a good challenge. I can see him doing it if he loses; I can see him doing it if he wins, cause he's a massive asshole, with the genes of at least two assholes in his being. Plus, he doesn't give enough of a shit about human lives to not fuck with them by killing them all.

He's a swell guy ain't he?

One Strip! One Strip!
LOLypop1224 ...what am I even DOING here? Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
...what am I even DOING here?
#27185: Nov 4th 2015 at 10:39:43 PM

I'm still going through this entire thread for fun. There's a lot of Hilarious in Hindsight quotes that I've found. And anyway, one thing I realised is that this thread has doubled in size within the space of a few months. Obviously, that's because of the new material. It makes sense. But...geez. This thread started years ago.

The *Legendary* Super Saiyan is motivated by a crying infant! He is a literal giant f***ing baby!
Arha Since: Jan, 2010
Majinangelo Since: Oct, 2015
#27187: Nov 5th 2015 at 2:00:29 AM

[up][up][up] I think Cell wanted to prove without the shadow of a doubt he was the very best and there was nothing anyone could do about it. After all he hosted the Cell Games because he saw how Trunks and Vegeta improved and thought they could get even better a few days later. So of course he'd be annoyed to hear Gohan telling him it's all pointless especially since Goku told him earlier that Gohan can beat him.

On another note, I've been thinking about Broly lately and it confuses me how he turned out to be this brute who screams Kakarot a lot in Broly second coming. In the first movie he was only obsessed about Goku when he first met him. And that's because he was struggling against his father mind control. He couldn't think about anything else because his hate was the only thing he had left. And even then it wasn't intense enough to break through Paragus' mind control. When Paragus lets him loose he's so happy to finally be free that killing Goku is just the first of many things he sets out to do. In his first movie he enjoys pummeling Trunks, Piccolo, Vegeta and Gohan just as much as destroying a planet just to crush the hopes and dreams of a bunch of slaves. In movie 10 however he gets frustrated when he realises Gohan is not Goku and Goku is not coming to confront him. It's a bit annoying come to think of it.

When I think about his backstory I see Broly as a potential Tragic Monster who never had a normal childhood because he was born so powerful noone could teach him to control his strength and especially not his father. And Paragus could have a much bigger role than he had since he used Broly's power to further his own agendas. It's much more interesting for me to think Broly as someone who gradually was driven insane by his lifestyle. I like to see Broly as a character who's been Cursed with Awesome and was destroyed by his own power because his guardian failed him and because he came to associate destruction with the freedom to be himself and to have fun without being afraid to break everything around him. But that's just the ramblings of someone who's always liked this character and who's probably overthinking.

unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#27188: Nov 5th 2015 at 2:18:34 AM

I'm a bit disappointed in Super.

I miss the days when Videl had a personality.

She's been really goddamned passive.

...I mean. She turned Super Saiyan earlier. That was cool.

I mean.

Videl being a stay at home mom and not fighting is. I mean. Not something I really expect of her?

Like, no, she can't fight threats to the planet, but she can still go to the gym. Personality wise she was always closer to Goku and Vegeta in the sense that she likes punching things.

And now that's gone and. There's nothing left really?

She's an empty husk of a character now.

It's sorta really sad.

Do it for the vine.

edited 5th Nov '15 2:27:15 AM by unnoun

LOLypop1224 ...what am I even DOING here? Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
...what am I even DOING here?
#27189: Nov 5th 2015 at 2:26:54 AM

The Chickification happened to Chi-Chi and sort of to 18. I don't know what we're expecting.

The *Legendary* Super Saiyan is motivated by a crying infant! He is a literal giant f***ing baby!
unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#27190: Nov 5th 2015 at 2:28:25 AM

I mean, 18 got to swindle a guy and get rich.

Chi-Chi became really overbearing.

When you take away Videl's fighting nerd stuff she doesn't quite have anything left anymore.

Like, I'm not even criticizing Videl's character in Super the way I would Chi-Chi's or 18's because she doesn't have one.

She's become bland and boring.

I mean, being abrasive and unlikeable like Chi-Chi would be a step up at this point.

I just don't understand.

edited 5th Nov '15 2:30:33 AM by unnoun

LOLypop1224 ...what am I even DOING here? Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
...what am I even DOING here?
#27191: Nov 5th 2015 at 2:33:12 AM

Because giving Videl a personality would require effort and giving screentime to non-fighters. And why would they bother doing that?

The *Legendary* Super Saiyan is motivated by a crying infant! He is a literal giant f***ing baby!
Arha Since: Jan, 2010
#27192: Nov 5th 2015 at 2:35:41 AM

Chickification didn't happen to Chichi, that's what she always was. In her first appearance she almost accidentally killed a dinosaur, asked Goku to marry her or whatever and then the next time she appeared years later she fought Goku and lost miserably while he was holding back. Then they got married.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#27193: Nov 5th 2015 at 2:39:55 AM

It's because I'm here now.

Yeah, I tend to double in size when you're around.

IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#27194: Nov 5th 2015 at 2:42:33 AM

Chichi's still as much of a nutjob as she was in her introduction.

Back when she thought dating Yamcha might be a good idea.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
IndirectActiveTransport plays capoeira from Chicago (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Every rose has its thorn
plays capoeira
#27196: Nov 5th 2015 at 6:14:08 AM

Gohan pointing out the pointless nature of the Cell game and Cell's motivations in general is just fine. Refusing to fight a monster that's murdered more people than Earth's god can keep track of though, that wasn't rational. At the very least, Cell needed a demonstration that showed 1:we don't appreciate that, 2:you will suffer consequences if you try that again. At the very least. But then Gohan went too far in the opposite direction and decided drag out the fight with Cell a lot longer than he needed to. He's every bit as ineffective at the whole 'defender' thing as his father, just not in the same ways.

As for Videl, I guess TOEI saw no point in having a Blood Knight who Can't Catch Up, couldn't come up with anything since entitled loudmouth, overbearing smother and grumpy laconic were already taken and thought a fourth wife with a temper was pushing it anyway. Honestly, I think I would have dialed down her temper too but have kept her interest in training and fighting anyway by conrasting it with Gohan's lack of those things and through their career as superheroes.(Of course I also wouldn't have padding out the show with side plots for everyone instead of redrawing those two movies so what do I know?)

edited 5th Nov '15 6:22:17 AM by IndirectActiveTransport

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HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#27197: Nov 5th 2015 at 6:17:43 AM

That is kinda rude.

As for the Chi-chi never had much personality thing, she could have if Toriyama had bothered to give her one, but he seems to think all female characters need to completely give up fighting and become housewives.

Now Chi-chi apparently wanted this, so while it's irking, I can deal with it (I'm not happy about it, nor am I happy about the way she's written, but I can deal), and 18 really only cares about money and her husband, and doesn't even need to train since she can't actually age or get weaker anyway.

But as Unnoun pointed out, Videl is a hardcore fighter who went around as the local superhero of her town. Her not being interested in fighting at all anymore is uncool. Unless they are gonna tell us she still does it offscreen (since she's fully aware of how outmatched she is in the regular kinds of fights the Z Warriors get into), I'm calling bullshit.

And enough with making fun of Yamcha. I really don't think it's funny anymore.

One Strip! One Strip!
Demongodofchaos2 Face me now, bitch! from In a Cultivation World (Ancient one) Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Face me now, bitch!
#27198: Nov 5th 2015 at 6:23:52 AM

As long as Yamcha exists, it will never stop. There comes a time for acceptance.

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JonnasN from Porto, Portugal Since: Jul, 2012
#27199: Nov 5th 2015 at 6:38:32 AM

One way of keeping Videl an actual character is giving her Saiyaman adventures, give her a small plot about balancing superhero life with a baby at home. Have her share this plot with Gohan, too.

But DBS is glad to abandon their superhero past, apparently.

unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#27200: Nov 5th 2015 at 6:52:16 AM

I saw Gohan in his Saiyaman costume.


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