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Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#26926: Oct 26th 2015 at 5:25:38 PM

Sure he didn't go Super Saiyan 2? He does that in GT.

edited 26th Oct '15 5:25:48 PM by Anomalocaris20

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#26927: Oct 26th 2015 at 5:27:26 PM

I thought that one of the lines in that fight specifically said that SS 1 Goku wasn't that much stronger than base Goku.

IndirectActiveTransport plays capoeira from Chicago (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Every rose has its thorn
plays capoeira
#26928: Oct 26th 2015 at 5:29:39 PM

SS3 X Werewolf Monkey sounds okay to me but you know what sounds better?

...GT is bullshit...

I used to cringe at GT characters getting in the Dragon Ball games but all of the sudden I kind of want to see more of them, to fulfill a nonsensical desire to beat them all up with Golden Freezer. That's another reason not having more definitive non GT versions of Pan and Uub is so disappointing.

Buldogue's lawyer
Shlugo_the_great King of Burgers from Far Far Away (On A Trope Odyssey) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
King of Burgers
#26929: Oct 26th 2015 at 5:30:00 PM

[up][up][up]I'm pretty sure he only turns into SSJ 2 later in that fight.

[up][up]Well see for yourself.

edited 26th Oct '15 5:30:17 PM by Shlugo_the_great

Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#26930: Oct 26th 2015 at 5:30:58 PM

Actually...that 100x thing for Super Saiyan in GT was only in the dub I think.

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#26931: Oct 26th 2015 at 5:34:33 PM

That's stupid. GT is stupid. Stop being stupid!

IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#26932: Oct 26th 2015 at 6:19:52 PM

Am I the one who's gonna have to tell Pushover that his numbers are wrong, again?

Okay, I guess I will.

SSJ is x50.

SSJ 2 is x2 that. In reality the actual multiplier is x100.

SSJ 3 is x4 that. In reality the actual multiplier is x400.

The transformations don't necessarily require you to transform into a prior form to transform into them, you can go from base to SSJ 3 if you want to, and the multiplier is the same, so saying x100 and x400 is technically the accurate thing to do.

This we know.

We all just sort of assume the multiplier for SSJ 4. I can accept Deathbattle's guess that it's x4000 based on combining the SSJ 3 and Oozaru multiplier, because SSJ x Oozaru seems way too small, given that SSJ 4 Goku is far above an opponent that utterly stomped SSJ 3.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#26933: Oct 26th 2015 at 6:47:00 PM

Did you even read it? At all?! I specifically said that I changed the multipliers for GT (and even then I mentioned that they were probably wrong anyways) because GT sucks and makes more sense with lower multipliers (although 'sense' with GT is a problem in and of itself). I KNOW what the official numbers are, and don't start up that whole 'SS 2 and SS 3 are completely separate multipliers and states of being from SS 1' crap again because that's wrong and you know it.

edited 26th Oct '15 6:53:56 PM by PushoverMediaCritic

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#26934: Oct 26th 2015 at 6:55:06 PM

I don't anyone ever argued that they were completely separate. I do remember people arguing there is no reason to believe they actually have to transform from to the other, to the other instead of just going from base to three or whatever.

Them all being extensions of one another actually hurts your argument there.

IndirectActiveTransport plays capoeira from Chicago (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Every rose has its thorn
plays capoeira
#26935: Oct 26th 2015 at 6:58:13 PM

X 500 is bigger than X 400, so no, it doesn't have to be SS3 X Full Moon Monkey. That's just what people want it to be.

If you want my personal numbers, Super Saiyan(GT version) is X 2. SS3 is X 10 and SS 4 is by 100, as in as good as the commonly assumed multiplier of regular dragon ball's SS2, which is absent in GT because it became SS4.

Buldogue's lawyer
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#26936: Oct 26th 2015 at 7:00:11 PM

SS 1: 50x base

SS 2: 2x stacked on top of SS 1

SS 3: 4x stacked on top of SS 2

SS 2 is nothing more than a stronger, non-buff, better energy conserving, lightingy Acended Super Saiyan and SS 3 is nothing more than a stronger, energy guzzling, huge hair version of SS 2.

IndirectActiveTransport plays capoeira from Chicago (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Every rose has its thorn
plays capoeira
#26937: Oct 26th 2015 at 9:02:45 PM

In regular Dragon Ball I guess you can make a case about that, though I tend to take multipliers with a grain of salt. They're never mentioned on panel.

In GT, no. During the fight with Freeza, Goku gets rammed into the planet's core and comes out just fine. In the Anime version of the fight it explicitly shows Goku taking a dunk straight into the lava and coming out without a burn, not even slightly irritated eyeballs. Yet Super Saiyan 4 is afraid of lava.

The Anime version of the Hyperbolic time chamber shows Goku get severely glaciated and suffers no ill effects but Super Saiyan 4 is severely hampered by having ice on his hand (making him as weak as Buyon).

These, among other things, prove Super Sayain 4 is weaker than Super Saiyan regular. Sure, Super Saiyan 4 is shown to be more powerful than the GT versions of Super Saiyan 1, 2 and 3 but all that means is that the GT versions of those states are also weaker than plain Super Saiyan 1. The only times Super Saiyan 4 shows anything remotely impressive by late Dragon Ball standards is during the fight with Nova Shenron, who is said to produce heat hotter than the sun(Goku and Vegeta end up losing, mind you, but they aren't immediately reduced to cinders, actually putting up a decent fight, that's impressive) and during the fight with Omega Shenron, whose covering of the Earth with Darkness is comparable to Super Perfect Cell and SS2 Gohan shaking it by powering it up. Therefor, SS4 is equal to SS2 in regular Dragon Ball.

The only other time that GT suggests Goku might have a higher power level is when in base he is said to have enough energy to light up a galaxy and traverse dimensions after getting stuck in an Eldritch Location. Despite this, his base form can't hold up a building, meaning Goku somehow lost that power(or that GT was a horribly written disgrace, take your pick)

Yeah, I mean Dragon Ball didn't always have the best writing beforehand or even afterwards between the three movie specials and Super but GT's just another level of bad. So bad I like to imagine it as being a pocket universe full of a bunch of weaklings who only look like the character we got attached to who would easily be torn apart by Freeza, the real Freeza, should he ever find him and his own inferior counterpart.(That's why Golden Freeza would be my ideal choice to destroy GT. Kill most of them with his weakest form, gradually taking on higher forms for the "stronger" while his Maximum Hormone F theme plays and then turn gold for the climactic moment when he breaks Omega Shenron in two to claim eternal life and subject the horrible GT timeline to the endless reign of tyranny it deserves)

edited 27th Oct '15 4:46:53 AM by IndirectActiveTransport

Buldogue's lawyer
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#26938: Oct 26th 2015 at 9:48:36 PM

GT fact: Base Goku > SS 4 Goku

SS 4 Goku couldn't injure Super 17 with a suicide attack, Base Goku punched clean through him.

SS 4 Goku was getting his shit stomped by Omega Shenron, Base Goku effortlessly tanked Omega's blasts while charging the Spirit Bomb.

GT: Base Goku > SS 4 Goku.

Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#26939: Oct 26th 2015 at 9:49:39 PM

...yeah, I'm ignoring the both of you. GT was great to me, so I really couldn't care less about anything you two are saying.

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#26940: Oct 26th 2015 at 9:52:04 PM

You wouldn't ignore Saiga, who's also stated GT is awful.

Though I don't mind the characters being used in the games.

One Strip! One Strip!
Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#26941: Oct 26th 2015 at 9:52:09 PM

Bear in mind that at least in the ice case, it wasn't just some random ice, it was ice produced by Eis Shenron. We can assume it has a higher power level than the average ice. tongue

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
Arha Since: Jan, 2010
#26942: Oct 26th 2015 at 9:58:12 PM

Magic ice that goes even below absolute freezing, but without that whole thing about temperatures below 0 kelvin actually being impossibly hot.

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#26943: Oct 26th 2015 at 10:00:29 PM

It is ice that has gone BEYOND Super Ice. You can call it Super Ice Two.

And this...

is to go...

even further beyond!!

HRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA-

edited 26th Oct '15 10:01:38 PM by Anomalocaris20

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#26944: Oct 26th 2015 at 10:00:32 PM

Bare in mind Saint Seiya also did the "colder than absolute zero" thing first, not to mention all the physics breaking other anime and manga, and just printed media in general, tend to do.

edited 26th Oct '15 10:00:47 PM by Ssj3Gojira

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
Cortez from Parts Unknown (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#26945: Oct 27th 2015 at 1:19:28 AM

@Lionheart0: Accepting that Goku is stronger doesn't mean Vegeta would stop trying to surpass him.

Super made it clear that respects Goku and him wanting to get stronger is no longer out of jealousy. Ego maybe, but not jealousy.

edited 27th Oct '15 1:22:08 AM by Cortez

IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#26946: Oct 27th 2015 at 3:21:08 AM

So your argument is basically "I don't like it so it's weaker!"?

Unfortunately for you, it doesn't work like that. That's how dumbass fanboys argue powerlevels. You know, those guys that claim Naruto can beat both Goku and Superman at the same time with his hands tied behind his back.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
IndirectActiveTransport plays capoeira from Chicago (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Every rose has its thorn
plays capoeira
#26947: Oct 27th 2015 at 5:53:37 AM

To summarize, yes it is. I don't like GT so it's weaker is my argument for having trained for the first time in his life Freeza destroy all it's "strong" fighters and rule over the rest of its population with an iron fist.

It's not as if I've omitted arguments that could be made for the GT incarnations being stronger either. The fact that arguments for the contrary exist is simply one of the reasons I don't like it. TOEI went out of its way to show how awesome Goku and co were with all this filler, filler it then based most of GT's 'plot' on, even pulling (more) characters from the non serial movies and thus proved that an entire animation company can be even more forgetful than a single man.

Remember when Goku powered up against Android 13 and broke apart the polar icecaps? And yes, the ice from Shenron could have been magical, or below absolute zero or some other silliness. With all the talking done to pad out GT's fight scenes the time could have been used to make such a statement. They already had made such silly claims with Nova Shenron. Yet it wasn't done.

And why couldn't Naruto beat Goku and Superman offhandedly using only one hand? Who brought up Naruto and Superman anyway? We were talking Dragon Ball, GT and movie specials/super. Furthermore, reasons were given in that discussion. At least the Saint Seiya analogy had some relevance beyond instigating Fandom Rivalry for the hell of it.(Athena vs Whis, go!)

Buldogue's lawyer
Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#26948: Oct 27th 2015 at 10:20:25 AM

Ya know, if I ever decide to write some kind of report on the cyclic nature of life, I think I'll use this thread as my primary evidence.

Let the joy of love give you an answer! Check out my book!
DoctorDiabolical So pure. Since: Mar, 2010
So pure.
#26949: Oct 27th 2015 at 11:28:53 AM

Pfft, Naruto beating Superman and Goku simultaneously... the only characters in the Naruto franchise who could pull off such a feat are Minato and Itachi!

Lionheart0 Since: Oct, 2009 Relationship Status: I'm just a hunk-a, hunk-a burnin' love
#26950: Oct 27th 2015 at 11:52:42 AM

[up][up]But what if Naruto had 4 months of intense training?


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