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LOLypop1224 ...what am I even DOING here? Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
...what am I even DOING here?
#26851: Oct 24th 2015 at 4:10:36 PM

I think it was more that Toriyama was dragging out the time it took for Goku to arrive on Namek so we'd be more hyped when he finally showed up to save their asses and beat everyone.

It's strange. Toriyama seems to really like writing the "Goku beats everyone easily while the rest of the cast stare in awe" scenes. Even though I find those moments a little annoying. Not the biggest fan of Goku ex Machina.

The *Legendary* Super Saiyan is motivated by a crying infant! He is a literal giant f***ing baby!
HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#26852: Oct 24th 2015 at 4:14:17 PM

[up] I've said it before, but in the Z period most of Goku's own development had already been completed and as such he was basically used as a walking plot device. The arguable actual protagonists of Z are Gohan, Piccolo, Vegeta, Krillin, and later on the kids.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#26853: Oct 24th 2015 at 4:16:16 PM

Yeah, I would actually prefer it if everyone aside from Goku beat all the villains aside from the leader and Goku saves them from him. Theoretical situation: the humans wear Nappa down so that when Goku shows up Nappa can't even put up a fight at all, or Krillin, Gohan, and Vegeta beat the entire Ginyu Force aside from Ginyu himself. Have Tenshinhan beat Drum and Goku saves him from King Piccolo.

In my opinion: fairly even 1-v-1 >>> effortless curbstomp any day.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#26854: Oct 24th 2015 at 4:26:58 PM

Goku is based on the Monkey King.

As frustrating as it is for everyone else to be impotent, it makes sense for him to beat everyone.

He comes for a race of Monkey King expies. Once I realized this, I became—slightly, and that's only slightly—more accepting of his status.

Vegeta arguable has the ego of the Monkey King, so it's the same for him.

One Strip! One Strip!
HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#26855: Oct 24th 2015 at 5:22:29 PM

Actually, thinking about it, the only times I'd say Goku really acts like a protagonist in Z - or at least, the same sort of protagonist he was in DB - are the Frieza and Kid Buu fights. Almost every other time the plot is driven by other characters. The Cell arc in particular he hardly does anything; instead, the story is moved by Trunks' desire to avert his future, Vegeta's arrogance, Krillin and 18's whirlwind romance, and finally Gohan stepping up as a hero in his own right. With input from 16 and Piccolo as well.

edited 24th Oct '15 5:25:59 PM by HamburgerTime

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#26856: Oct 24th 2015 at 5:55:30 PM

Ten defeating Drum kind of defeats the point of Drum even existing. Ten and Goku were even, and so this was a quick shorthand to show Goku's increase in strength and set up the real battle, Goku vs Piccolo. I don't like most examples of Goku ex Machina but this one was very cool.

There would be no narrative point to Ten defeating Drum in an even one-on-one. It'd be pure padding, and things would be entirely the same if Piccolo never birthed him and just beat Ten up.

The supporting cast being effective against Nappa and the Ginyu Force would also undermine the hopeless atmosphere those scenes sought to establish. I'm not fond of the Goku ex Machina in the second, but it's pretty great in the first. I think the second could have been replaced with Piccolo ex Machina, shuffling things around so he fuses with Nail there and defeats the Ginyu force. It'd have more impact than him just padding out the Freeza battle. In that situation it could still work for the group to defeat Recoome before Piccolo shows up, because they'd be totally spent and realize they can't get past Burter and Jheese after that.

Like all tropes, Curb-Stomp Battle is merely a tool and has plenty of narrative value. Even fights should be saved for when they actually matter.

The pacing issues would be compounded 100 fold if the fights were dragged out any more.

edited 24th Oct '15 5:57:32 PM by Saiga

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#26857: Oct 24th 2015 at 6:19:57 PM

Oh my god, this episode Super had some delicious Vegeta faces.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#26858: Oct 24th 2015 at 6:21:50 PM

[up]

I kinda see your point Saiga. I do agree that without that sense of hopelessness, Goku's arrival would have less impact.

I do agree that beating Recoome would have been nice though, because they'd still be screwed against Jeice and Burter.....though I think it wouldn't have been as funny for Goku elbowing Recoome in the chest and downing him in one shot.

But yeah, there are things he could have done to keep the dramatic tension without making the other characters near useless.

One Strip! One Strip!
Shlugo_the_great King of Burgers from Far Far Away (On A Trope Odyssey) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
King of Burgers
#26859: Oct 24th 2015 at 6:25:20 PM

Guldo already proved to be less than advertised. If they beat Recoome as well Ginyu force would look like an overhyped joke.

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#26860: Oct 24th 2015 at 6:39:19 PM

Fixed Relative Strength; as much as nobody wants to admit it, there has to be some sort of hierarchy among the main characters, otherwise none of them would really be special.

Like, if every single character was able to keep up with Goku's strength, what makes Goku even special anymore?

This is why he's generally the one who does the Big Damn Heroes moment, he's the main character and therefore the one who has the most narrative weight. When everyone else is beaten, Goku's presence is supposed to signify things are going to be ok. Its a standard narrative piece that's all over fiction, weaker supporting characters that the main character has to protect.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#26861: Oct 24th 2015 at 6:42:30 PM

[up][up] Guldo sorta needed to serve that point to show off Kuririn and Gohan's upgrades, and even then it was established that he was the weak link.

I think beating Recoome could have worked if Nail came in, defeated Recoome after he was injured, and was then beaten in turn by Burter and Jheese. That puts him in a good spot for Piccolo to fuse with him. I mean, if you disagree that's fair. I'm sort of borderline on it myself, but I think the Ginyus would still be credible. If anything Recoome being beaten would show exactly what it takes to defeat them, proving that Burter and Jheese couldn't be beaten by the group. And then Ginyu's still above them.

But the group (sans Nail/Piccolo) beating the Ginyu Force would be terrible and a total waste of time.

edited 24th Oct '15 6:43:43 PM by Saiga

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#26862: Oct 24th 2015 at 7:11:51 PM

Hmm yes. They should have used Nail.

I mean, it would have been better than hyping him up only to have him stomped by Frieza.

One Strip! One Strip!
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#26863: Oct 24th 2015 at 8:09:36 PM

Well getting stomped by Frieza helped established just how stupidly powerful he was; Nail was said to be 42,000 which is about on par with Recoome, Jeice, and Burter who were already curb stomping the heroes.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#26864: Oct 24th 2015 at 8:11:03 PM

I think Piccolo needs a spinoff.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#26865: Oct 24th 2015 at 8:12:12 PM

Slug Man!

The adventures of a Slug!

DOOOOODGE!!!!!

edited 24th Oct '15 8:12:25 PM by HandsomeRob

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Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#26866: Oct 24th 2015 at 8:12:49 PM

Favorite Dragon Ball Z/GT/Kai/Super music, including video games?

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
LOLypop1224 ...what am I even DOING here? Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
...what am I even DOING here?
#26867: Oct 24th 2015 at 8:24:32 PM

Goku beating Recoome was alright, although it was a bit of a repeat of the Nappa fight. It was only when Goku took on Jheese and Burter at the same time that I started thinking it was getting a little excessive.

I was fine with Nail being stomped by Freeza, though. It was one of the times where Power Levels were used really well, when Freeza tells us his power in his first form is 530,000. That was ridiculously high at that point. Seriously.

The *Legendary* Super Saiyan is motivated by a crying infant! He is a literal giant f***ing baby!
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#26868: Oct 24th 2015 at 8:33:19 PM

And this is before we find out he was suppressing his full power.

He was that far above everyone else when he was just phoning it in.

And as Resurrection F shows, Frieza would have been an even worse terror if he'd made any attempt to actually train. It's really a good thing he was too stupid to take Goku up on the offer the first time, and got wrecked instead, even if Cyborg Frieza was supposedly stronger.

One Strip! One Strip!
IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#26869: Oct 24th 2015 at 8:50:12 PM

Goku beating Recoome was nothing like the Nappa fight.

Recoome was a joke compared to Goku. Nappa actually forced Goku to use the Kaioken.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#26870: Oct 24th 2015 at 8:57:02 PM

Fair enough.

Goes to show how weak Goku was back then, and how much stronger Nappa was in comparison to how weak Recoome was when compared to Goku.

Though Nappa was far less beat up then Recoome, at least visually.

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BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#26871: Oct 24th 2015 at 9:16:14 PM

The setup for both is virtually identical; they just never pretended Recoome had a chance like with Nappa.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#26872: Oct 24th 2015 at 9:22:05 PM

Makes sense.

Goku hadn't fully perfected the Kaiouken yet, and only used it when Nappa, despite being weaker, proved too tough otherwise (shown by his being able to fight Goku equally once he calmed down, even if the latter was still holding back).

In contrast, Goku beat Recoome in an instant, indicating a great mastery of his abilities (I know the invisible Kaiouken is considered non-canon, but I still think it makes sense for Goku to have perfected the technique to the point where he doesn't even look like he's using it, since it's all about using it in quick bursts).

The Goku of the Saiyan Saga knew how to use the Kaiouken. The Goku of the Namek Saga mastered it. No Calling Your Attacks needed anymore. It was as easy as blinking.

So was beating Recoome.tongue

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Lionheart0 Since: Oct, 2009 Relationship Status: I'm just a hunk-a, hunk-a burnin' love
#26873: Oct 24th 2015 at 9:27:32 PM

So saying he held back Super Saiyan 3 for a good fight doesn't really work, since even with that retcon it doesn't change that Super Saiyan 2 Goku was prepared to fight Super Saiyan Vegeta. The best in-universe answer is that he felt it was too great a risk, I suppose.

I guess you could argue that since Goku still intended to deal with Majin Buu after after his fight with Vegeta, he didn't want to blow his load and use up all his time earth then and there.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#26874: Oct 24th 2015 at 9:38:55 PM

There's no evidence he knew that using it would use up too much time on earth....

Unless Baba told him that using too much power would do that and to avoid doing as such.

Goku never thought it would be an issue cause he never expected to meet anyone with power beyond SSJ 2 (which he assumed would be only Gohan).

But that's still hard to justify.

One Strip! One Strip!
LOLypop1224 ...what am I even DOING here? Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
...what am I even DOING here?
#26875: Oct 24th 2015 at 9:45:13 PM

The only reason Goku even used the Kaio-Ken against Nappa was because he went after Krillin and Gohan unexpectedly. He could have won without it. Heck, Goku even says that right after the 'Over 8000' line.

The *Legendary* Super Saiyan is motivated by a crying infant! He is a literal giant f***ing baby!

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