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randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#26726: Oct 22nd 2015 at 8:29:36 AM

Shouldn't Goku have destroyed Boo if that was the case?

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#26727: Oct 22nd 2015 at 8:31:01 AM

Goku says he could have beaten Fat Buu then and there, but choose not too.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#26728: Oct 22nd 2015 at 8:42:04 AM

Yeah, but he also didn't know yet how much energy Super Saiyan 3 burned up.

So while he probably did have the power to destroy Buu, we don't know if he had the time to do so.

One Strip! One Strip!
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#26729: Oct 22nd 2015 at 8:47:27 AM

He had the time. Nothing was stopping him from finishing the fight as quickly as possible.

On the other hand, he probably wouldn't have an answer for Buu's stupid high level of regeneration.

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#26730: Oct 22nd 2015 at 9:02:51 AM

Goku probably could have killed Fat Buu in Super Saiyan 3, but he would have probably burned out the rest of his time doing so. And for some reason, he felt he needed to use that time to teach the boys Fusion.

I dunno, a lot of the Buu arc could have been resolved if the characters weren't acting like idiots. It really is a bit of an Idiot Plot when you stop and analyze shit.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
IndirectActiveTransport plays capoeira from Chicago (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Every rose has its thorn
plays capoeira
#26731: Oct 22nd 2015 at 9:08:27 AM

It wasn't his best choice but there are three things to consider.

One, Goku was dead and sustained use of SS3 would have sent him back to the other side. He was working on the logic oh my god, these kids cannot handle this, I need to get them ready for the next threat since I've already kicked the bucket.

Two, Goku's slow to kill people and has been since he saw Piccolo, a literal embodiment of evil, was capable of spawning something that eventually became a good person despite having all of his memories, something that saved his son, and the planet's population. He saw that Buu was being controlled by Babadi mostly, convinced him not to be, not expecting that Buu would go on and kill people anyway. But in the long run, Buu did eventually stop killing people without Babadi being around. Had Goku not been dead it would have been a totally viable strategy(until the whole Grey Buu to Super Buu Diabolus ex Machina)

Three, Vegeta could have also not sold his soul for power. That's the single most egregious error in the Buu saga.

Yes East Kaioshin could have not frozen Gohan, but he was trying to figure out where Babadi was hiding. As the Kais have interstellar telepathy on top of that look down and see everything trait the Dragon Ball gods seem to possess, it seems Babadi was pretty good at hiding. Interrogating Yamu and Spobovitch would have probably been a better plan but he and Kibitoh also didn't know just how strong Gohan was until they were halfway through with it. Wrong choice but good intentions.

They could have just killed all of Babadi's men in a big battle royal from the start and not played his game but they were running off the logic from Kaioshin and Kibtoh that storming Babadi's forces in such a way would have been suicidal and even after they had a gauge of their strength, Goku and friends did have some motivation to play with Babadi. Piccolo and Krillen being turned to stone.

And Goku might have had enough time to deal with Buu in the second place if not for the second most egregious error in the Buu saga. Vegeta, having sensed just how deep Buu's power went and acknowledging to Goku that they would need to fight him together, attacked Goku from behind so he could fight Buu himself. Fat Buu was still weaker than Kid Buu, so their whole stall-SS 3 kill strategy might have worked, especially since they could have arrived before Gohan and East Kaioshin were creamed, if Goku simply appealing to Buu's better nature did not work first, and then Goku would have had more time to see Buu's reformation through and could have died with Earth having a potential new defender instead of spending that time teaching the boys fusion and such.

I've mentioned more than once that Vegeta is not my favorite character, and it all pretty much goes back to the Buu saga, which gave Vegeta his most interesting fight since his first with Goku, cemented that Vegeta had been more trouble than he was worth, saw Vegeta's character develop in a new direction, and ended with three Earth residents plus Gotenks far out of his league. The whole Buu saga was basically Vegeta's last hurrah as a spotlight character. He had neither the power level nor the character motivation to be one anymore, the manga's end was all about this mysterious new character potentially strong enough to beat all those amazing fighters from the last saga, Goku included. I was ready to see that followed up on.

GT:Uub sucks. Even after fusing with Majin Buu the best he can do is stall a possessed Vegeta before fading into irrelevance. Okay, GT is tired of everyone being laughably inferior to Goku. Naturally it's Vegeta they decide to pull up.

Three movie specials, which are prequels. Fine, at least we're past the point where Vegeta has acknowledged his inferiority so we can get more Majin Buu, Gotekns and Gohan...Vegeta's surpassed all three and Goku in an instant.

New Dragon Ball series and it's covering the same ground as two of those movie specials, specifically skipping to the one where Vegeta jumps ahead, further emphasizing that the acceptance of his inferiority, his defining moment after being the most destructive force of the last arc not named Babadi or Buu because of said inferiority complex, is being discarded.

Buldogue's lawyer
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#26732: Oct 22nd 2015 at 9:21:22 AM

Hell, why didn't Goku use SSJ 3 against Vegeta when he had the chance?

He knew ending the fight quickly was necessary. Then again, he's as much a Blood Knight as Vegeta, so there we go.

Yeah, Buu is filled to the brim with poor judgement calls, mostly by Goku and Vegeta.

Then again, Cell has it's share of poor judgement calls as well, so there we go.

edited 22nd Oct '15 9:21:33 AM by HandsomeRob

One Strip! One Strip!
Shlugo_the_great King of Burgers from Far Far Away (On A Trope Odyssey) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
King of Burgers
#26733: Oct 22nd 2015 at 9:22:41 AM

Instead of Vegeta it's Gohan that's turned into second string character by the new stuff instead.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#26734: Oct 22nd 2015 at 9:25:05 AM

Well, Toriyama seems to have given up on Gohan after spending all that time building him up.

It makes all those years we watched Gohan grow up a complete waste really.

Do you guys think there are some characters Toriyama just doesn't care about or even like anymore?

I sometimes wonder myself.

One Strip! One Strip!
Shlugo_the_great King of Burgers from Far Far Away (On A Trope Odyssey) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
King of Burgers
#26735: Oct 22nd 2015 at 9:27:55 AM

More like he finally written the pay-off to all the build up, found it lacking and just went back to Goku because he liked him better as the main character. Can't argue with him.

DoctorDiabolical So pure. Since: Mar, 2010
So pure.
#26736: Oct 22nd 2015 at 9:30:09 AM

At this point, I'm convinced Toriyama cares about exactly two characters + whoever he most recently came up with to be "most powerful guy(s)" tongue

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#26737: Oct 22nd 2015 at 9:35:05 AM

[up][up]I can aruge and I will continue to do. I SHALL BITCH UNTIL TOMORROW. :V

My only problem with Toriyama's treatment of Gohan is sort of related to something Saiga said, in that, no matter how Toriyama felt about Gohan, it still makes much more sense for him to be in the spotlight than Vegeta, who only seems to get it nowadays more due to Popularity Power.

I mean, it'd be one thing if Toriyama just simply let Gohan slip into the background, but no, he is actively nerfing him and forgetting about previously established powers he has shown. Afterward, he basically has to bring in an entirely new power up and make it exclusive to Goku & Vegeta just to cement them surpassing Gohan.

That's just sloppy writing in general.

edited 22nd Oct '15 9:35:43 AM by BlackYakuzu94

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#26738: Oct 22nd 2015 at 9:36:13 AM

Gohan let his power wane after Majin Buu. Then he started wearing those glasses and that vest and...everything. The nerd effect caused his power to actively decay at an exhorbitant rate.

Basically, all the power he gained from the Old Kai still exists, it's just embarrassed to be seen with him.

edited 22nd Oct '15 9:37:40 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Shlugo_the_great King of Burgers from Far Far Away (On A Trope Odyssey) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
King of Burgers
#26739: Oct 22nd 2015 at 9:39:40 AM

I admit I find Gohan getting left behind by the new stuff bit satisfying, though it's more because of the smug fanboys who spent last fifteen years repeating "Gohan is the strongest unfused character" like mantra. It's nice to see the tables turned on them.

Petty, yes I know, but it's the little things in life. tongue

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#26740: Oct 22nd 2015 at 9:44:12 AM

I find it satisfying because even Gohan doesn't want Gohan to be the strongest warrior in the universe. Being the guy who punches bad guys until they fall down isn't his thing, protecting others is.

I wouldn't mind seeing the Great Saiyaman flying around pulling people out of harm's way while Goku and Vegeta are having their way with villains. Like, Vegeta punches a dude towards a building because he gives no shits and before the dude impacts, we see Gohan in his costume sweep through the building and fly out the other side carrying people in his arms.

edited 22nd Oct '15 9:44:31 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
IndirectActiveTransport plays capoeira from Chicago (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Every rose has its thorn
plays capoeira
#26741: Oct 22nd 2015 at 9:55:13 AM

Basically, all the power he gained from the Old Kai still exists, it's just embarrassed to be seen with him.
And that is now my "head canon".

Honestly, I don't mind Gohan being left behind too much, not as much as Goten, Trunks or Majin Buu(or Uub or Pan) because Gohan's been around longer than the rest of them. It's the manor in which Vegeta surpasses Gohan and the fact it's Vegeta rather than a newer character he's being discarded in favor of. Yes, Vegeta is "newer" than Gohan but Gohan has a lot more potential for character development and could use more fleshing out regardless, not to mention Gohan's wife also needs some real fleshing out and or development. A silver lining is that Videl should get some of those things when Pan is old enough to do stuff.

Buldogue's lawyer
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#26742: Oct 22nd 2015 at 10:14:35 AM

So basically, most of you are ok with Gohan getting shat on cause you don't like or care about him?

If I'm wrong on that assumption, then I'll recant this statement, but am I getting somewhere here?

One Strip! One Strip!
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#26743: Oct 22nd 2015 at 10:18:04 AM

I'm okay with it because I'm okay with the author or creators doing whatever it is they want to do. So long as they make it makes sense, and it could easily be argued it's been handled poorly, but hey, no need to hold a grudge.

I do have to roll my eyes sometimes when people go on about how Gohan's too good a person to be a protagonist for a story like this though.

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#26744: Oct 22nd 2015 at 10:29:31 AM

I mind it for my aforementioned reasons and yes, because he's my favorite character. I wouldn't mind it as much if the manner he was dispatched was more graceful and was more gradual rather than the abrupt "Fuck Gohan, he doesn't matter anymore" that's been taking place.

And I really have to roll my eyes when people claim Gohan "isn't a suitable protagonist". Literally anyone can be the protagonist with the right amount of framing and development, and guess what Gohan had for most of the series :V I really don't care how Toriyama felt. Even if I can't change anything, I'll still call how he's handling Gohan nowadays just extremely poor. Hell, he could just have a small scene of Gohan being like "Well, I'm gonna be a Dad soon, so I won't really have time to right anymore. But I wanna be the best father I can be", I would have accepted that.

And even with that, Gohan has just as much of a motivation to get stronger as Goku & Vegeta do. Remember the entire reason he became a Super Saiyan was so he could protect his family and friends, and was the primary reason Super Saiyan 2 happened. Yea, its a much more generic, shonen-esc motivation of wanting to protect, but it makes sense for Gohan's character and guess what, its a Shonen series.

And ya know the kicker to all of this, I don't even mind Goku & Vegeta getting stronger or more spotlight focused on them. I just dislike the expense it came of. Its like, literally everyone else barring Beerus and Whis are being downplayed for more Goku & Vegeta, I hate it when a series downplays its supporting cast because it makes them come off as superfluous to the setting.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Lionheart0 Since: Oct, 2009 Relationship Status: I'm just a hunk-a, hunk-a burnin' love
#26745: Oct 22nd 2015 at 11:34:58 AM

So having read the manga chapter, I'm ok with Super Saiyan Blue, especially since they acknowledged how absurd of a name SSGSS was.

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#26746: Oct 22nd 2015 at 12:36:31 PM

Yo dawg, we heard you lieked Super Saiyan, so we put Super Saiyan God in your Super Saiyan, so now you can Super Saiyan while you Super Saiyan God.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Shlugo_the_great King of Burgers from Far Far Away (On A Trope Odyssey) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
King of Burgers
#26747: Oct 22nd 2015 at 12:50:52 PM

If you go Super Sayian God Super Sayian and I go Super Sayian God Super Sayian then we can both fight as Super Sayian God Super Sayian and have a Super Sayian God Super Sayian versus Super Sayian God Super Sayian fight between one Super Sayian God Super Sayian and another Super Sayian God Super Sayian to see who is the strongest Super Sayian God Super Sayian out of all Super Sayian God Super Sayians!

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#26748: Oct 22nd 2015 at 1:00:10 PM

~bites tongue~

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#26749: Oct 22nd 2015 at 1:03:46 PM

And it will all be rendered moot once Super Namekian God is discovered.

For about five minutes, but then Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Grade 2 will sweep it back into obscurity before the form even really has a chance to be useful.

  • "I am SUPER SAIYAN GOD SUPER VEGETA!"
  • "You're what now?"
  • "Screw you, I'm not saying that again. It's a mouthful."

edited 22nd Oct '15 1:04:33 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Shlugo_the_great King of Burgers from Far Far Away (On A Trope Odyssey) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
King of Burgers
#26750: Oct 22nd 2015 at 1:05:21 PM

Then that will be replaced by Full Power Super Sayian God Full Power Super Sayian.


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